POWER TO THE PEDAL – CLEAT POSITION

by on April 20, 2011 » Add more comments.
Last updated: September 7, 2011

When talking about cleat position, several things need to be kept in mind.

No. 1 is that most of the advice you will see in print recommends that the cleat be positioned so that the ball of the foot is over the pedal axle.  More specifically, this means that the cleat should be placed so that the centre of the 1st MTP  joint (base knuckle of the big toe)  is positioned over the centre of the pedal axle with crank arm forward and horizontal and shoe in pedal level, as this is the convention for measuring cleat position.  This is arguable advice at best and I will explain why below.

No. 2 is that while the foot is a lever, it is not an inherently efficient lever because the fulcrum or pivot of the lever is back at the ankle.  That means the longer the effective lever length, or in other words the further forward the cleat position relative to foot in shoe, the greater the effort required of  the lower leg muscles (mainly gastrocs and soleus; ie,  calves) to stabilise foot (and ankle) while pedaling. Bear in mind that much of this effort is not contributing directly to propelling the bike but merely to stabilising foot and ankle. Conversely, the further rearward the cleat position, or in effect the shorter the foot as a lever,  the less work the muscles of the lower leg are required to do to maintain stability of foot on pedal.

No. 3 is that under significant loads per pedal stroke (forcing a gear a bit) , all but a tiny fraction of riders drop their heels more  relative to their individual pedaling technique (heel dropping; run of the mill; toe down etc) than they do at lesser loads.

And lastly, No. 4. When deciding on a cleat position you need to know what type of riding is intended and for what duration and at what intensity. Below are three views about how to determine cleat position. Each are effective and which one you should choose depends on on what your priorities are on the bike. A t the end of this post will be advice to help you determine which method is best for you.

Firstly, an explanatory note: Method 1 and Method 2 I would group as “Modified Forefoot” cleat positioning. Method 3 came to my attention after many email conversations with and a subsequent visit  by Gotz Heine.

METHOD NO. 1

So what is wrong with ball of the foot over the pedal axle (hereafter referred to as BOFOPA)?

Here’s a simple thought experiment. Firstly, I assume that no one reading this would advocate placing the cleat so that it is further forward than BOFOPA?

Proceeding on that assumption, lets position the cleat at BOFOPA and ask the rider  to perform some efforts with significant loads per pedal stroke. Like riding up a hill forcing the gear a bit or accelerating a big gear while staying seated. All riders do these things from time to time. Under these and similar conditions, the rider will drop their heel more than they do at lighter loads.

Where now is the ball of the foot?

It is not centred over the pedal axle. It has rotated back somewhat because of the increased  drop of  the heel. This means that BOFOPA is not attainable under significant load when the rider most needs it. To maintain BOFOPA with the heel drop that occurs under any real load, the ball of the foot needs to be in front of the pedal axle as usually measured  to be over it when pushing really hard.  How far in front depends on the size of the shoe and the degree of heel drop. Some general recommendations follow below. These are based on trial and error testing on thousands of subjects over many years. They are general recommendations for those that want simple answers to a complex question, but are not to be considered specific to any individual. Long experience has shown me that they will work for some level of benefit for the vast majority of performance oriented riders.

GENERAL RECOMMENDATIONS FOR  ACHIEVING BOFOPA UNDER SIGNIFICANT LOAD.

Shoe size 36 – 38:  Centre of ball of foot 7 – 9 mm in front of the centre of the pedal axle

Shoe sizes 39 – 41:  8 – 10 mm in front

Shoe sizes 42 – 43:  9 – 11 mm in front

Shoe sizes 44 – 45:  10 – 12 mm in front

Shoe sizes 46 – 47:  11 – 14 mm front

Shoe sizes 48 – 50:  12 – 16 mm in front

All measured with the shoe leveled from where the sole joins the upper under mid heel to where the sole joins the upper at the area of cleat attachment.  One caveat -

  • The above table is for road and mtb riders of average technique. Exceptional heel droppers will need their cleats further back again. Exceptional toe droppers will not need their cleats quite as far back. Crit riders and those who need to optimise their sprinting abilities should use the lower end of the scale. Eg. size 42/43 shoe recommendation of BOF 9 – 11 mm in front of pedal axle, use 9mm. And riders who want to optimise their ability to sustain an effort (riders who do the occasional TT but don’t want to give up their sprinting ability) should opt for the higher end of the scale of recommendation. Eg, for the same example of shoe size 42/43, use 11mm.

If you choose to apply the recommendations above, you need to be able to find out exactly where the centre of the ball of the foot is and then mark that point on the shoe.  This link will give you most of the information that you will need to do that.

METHOD NO. 2

Here’s another thought experiment. Most (I hope all) would agree that it is a good idea to spread the pedaling pressure on the foot  over the largest area to lessen the likelihood of hotspots or pain developing. If you agree with that, why is the focus of the literature on BOFOPA?

Why pick the 1st MTP joint (ball of foot)?

Why not pick the 3rd or the 5th or whichever other one you choose?

I think that somewhere along the way, the mechanics of walking and running were mistakenly applied to cycling. When we walk, we strike the ground with the outside of the rear foot (which is why the outside rear  of the heels of your work shoes show more wear than the the rest of the shoe heel) and progressively roll in until we toe off on the inside edge of the forefoot. Do that as a species  for several million years and evolution dictates  that the ball of the foot is the largest of the MTP joints because it is the most heavily loaded on the toe off part of the stride. The problem here is that we have evolved  to walk and run, not to cycle and cycling foot mechanics differ from walking  foot mechanics substantially. As measured from the heel, the MTP joints are all at different distances from the heel with huge individual variation as to the relative placement of the 5 joints.  So to spread the load would it not be better to try and find a mid point amongst the MTP joints?

I find this a persuasive argument and think it reasonable to answer yes. If you agree, then the best way to determine where to place the foot over the pedal is as follows.

  • Mark the joint space of the Ist and 5th MTP joinst as described here
  • Find a hard surface and stand with your heels hard back against the base of a wall.
  • Place a 300 ml steel rule against the wall between your feet so that the long axis of the rule faces away from the wall.
  • Have a helper record the distance from wall to the centre of the Ist MTP joint on each foot using the rule as a reference .
  • Have a helper record the distance from the wall for the 5th MTP joint. for each foot.
  • Deduct the distance from the wall of the 5th MTP joint from the distance from the wall of the 1st MTP joint. An example might be 182mm minus 154mm = 28mm.
  • Halve that number (in the example above; 14mm)
  • Set the cleat position so that the centre of the 1st MTP joint is 14mm (or whatever number you calculate as being appropriate to you) in front of the pedal axle as measured in the usual manner described near the start of this post.
  • Don’t be surprised if you get a slightly different number for each foot.

In most cases, this will result in a more rearward cleat position than Method 1. In a minority it will be a more forward cleat position. What result you get will be determined by your foot proportions rather than a more generic approach as used in Method 1. What is also clear using this method is that 2 riders with similar sized feet can come up with quite different numbers because of individual differences as to where the 1st and 5th MTP joints are placed relative to the heel. More advice on the pros and cons of each approach later.

If using Method 2 , don’t necessarily expect the numbers to be the same for each foot. Most people have feet with some variance in length and often in proportions as well. If you have any doubt about the result of this exercise, check and recheck your joint centre markings and calculations until you have certainty. The (philosophical) benefit of  Method 2 is that it is a more individual approach  than Method 1 because it takes into account individual differences in foot proportions.

METHOD No. 3

Here we enter a whole new world, that of Midfoot cleat position.  Midfoot cleat position is when the cleat is positioned so that the Tarsometatarsal (TMT)  joints are over the centre of the pedal axle. The TMT joints are the joints between the two rows of bones drawn on the foot below.

Don’t think of this as being like Method 1 or 2 but more so, because it is not. As an example a rider with average foot proportions in say size 44 would have to move the cleat back 40 – 50mm further on the shoe  than would be the case with Method 1.

I first heard about Midfoot cleat position from the gent who is most responsible for developing it and popularising it in the Western world, Gotz Heine (pronouned Gertz Hy neh). Gotz is an ex pro, chiropractor, naturopath, ex team director and currently a shoe maker. The idea behind midfoot cleat position is to take the idea of an inherently stable foot on pedal to the nth degree. When the cleat is positioned this way, ankle movement is reduced substantially but not eliminated, and the load on the calves is reduced enormously. This means that the lower leg becomes more of  a connecting rod than a stabilising mechanism which in turn frees up blood flow and oxygen to be used elsewhere.

What is also clear using torque analysis is that for a given power output at a given rpm, the torque peak for each pedal stroke is lower but torque is applied for more degrees of crank arc than is possible with forefoot cleat position. So in essence, for a given power output and cadence  the rider is able to apply force for longer per pedal stroke  but does not have to contract muscles as hard.  Typically the difference in torque peak is 10%. So if looking at a torque line graph, the peak is lower but the trough is higher for the same total torque applied per stroke as would be the case with forefoot cleat position.

Explanatory note:

Torque = pressure applied to the pedal x crank arm length

Power = torque x rpm

So what happens with riders who try Midfoot cleat position?

My experience is that the large majority of experimenters stick with it.

The effect on performance varies from rider to rider. I know one rider (multiple elite State and National TT Championship winner) who improved his PB on the State Championship TT course (43kms) by 3 minutes with no other change but moving to Midfoot cleat position and making the positional changes necessary to do that. Unfortunately that is exceptional and atypical. What is more common is  that Midfoot riders find that they recover more quickly from hard rides and from hard efforts within rides. Another typical comment is that when a rider feels they are riding right at their limit, they take noticeably longer to crack.  Many also find that they can both push a harder gear or maintain a higher cadence when necessary with ease.

There is a down side though. I’ve tried to summarise the pros and cons below.

Midfoot Pros:

1. Better ability to sustain an effort. The longer and harder the effort, the more apparent this becomes for most.

2. Quicker recovery

3. Much better ability for triathletes to run off the bike.

4. Heart rate will end up at what would be expected for a given power output but takes longer to rise at the start of a ride.

5. The calves, the smallest muscle in the pedaling kinetic chain and the furthest from the torso and thus, the most affected by vascular compression, are largely taken out of the picture. The glutes, hamstrings and quads are more heavily loaded but are the largest and most powerful muscle groups we have and cope easily.

Midfoot Cons:

1. Biomac (Gotz Heine) is the only one making production Midfoot compatible shoes. Biomac also offer a custom option.. I believe some other  custom shoe makers also offer it as an option. No large manufacturer makes a midfoot compatible shoe. Until that happens, shoes need to be modifed and new eyelets fitted which is not possible on most road production shoes unless you use a 2 bolt mtb pedal. It is possible with ease on Shimano’s current road shoes with a Speedplay cleat.

2. Seat needs to drop by 25 – 40mm depending on the effect on the riders ankle movement. Bars will need to drop as well.

3. Huge toe overlap, though not an issue unless track standing or performing walking pace U turns.

4. Off the seat climbing initially feels strange (it is this which will make the rider realise how much they are used to using ankle movement with forefoot cleat position) and ability to jump in a sprint will suffer (though not top speed). Both of these issues can be eliminated or near eliminated by using Rotor Q rings on Position 4.

5. While 50kms on midfoot is enough to convince most to continue with it, it does take a week or 3 to fine tune matters like seat and bar height because of ongoing adaptations occurring in the riders pedalling technique.

Lastly, if Midfoot works well, why not move the cleat back even further?

Because for able bodied riders, ankle movement is reduced to the point where the pedaling action becomes more like a step machine than cycling, and fluency of technique is hard to achieve.

WHICH METHOD TO USE?

Firstly, my experience is that the great majority of riders have no accurate idea of what their cleat position is. If you are serious about your cycling, it is a good idea to find out . This post explains how to determine where the centre of the 1st mtp joint is and mark it on the shoe to use as a reference point. The explanatory note at the end will give you the rest of the info that you need.

As to the answer to the heading  question above, that lies in the relative priority that an individual places on sprinting off the seat vs riding on the seat.

When sprinting off the seat, a rider moves forward over the bottom bracket and can apply more force than in seated riding because body weight is being added to the muscular force generated by the legs. Being closer to the axis of rotation of the cranks, there is potentially a much larger low leverage ‘ dead zone’ either side of top dead centre (TDC)  and bottom dead centre (BDC) in the pedal stroke than there is on a UCI legal bike when seated. The solution to this ‘dead zone’ problem that all sprinters autonomically adopt  is to yank the bottom heel upward forcefully at or just after BDC which in turns helps the top foot over TDC.  The further forward the cleat position relative to foot in shoe (up to a point), the easier this process is and the better the individual can sprint off the seat – all other things being equal.

However,  if you try sustaining an effort with BOFOPA or further forward, particularly on a climb or in a big gear with the extra heel drop that generally occurs when with those activities , the cleat position that maximises your sprint will likely disappoint for reasons outlined at the start of this post.

Method 1 is tried and true  and I have applied it to thousands of riders as the best compromise for all round performance riding. That is good ability to get the rider to the end of a race over varied terrain and still effectively sprint at the end.  This is for  the person who rides local crits, some road racing or mtb racing, maybe a few TT’s or triathlons and so on. In other words someone who has a varied riding ‘profile’ and wants to be effective at most things that can be done on a bike. It is also a much better introduction to an effective cleat position than BOFOPA for those who don’t want the bother with the ‘complication’ of Method 2 or Method 3.

Method 2 is a refinement of Method 1 but is not without ‘traps’. One of the traps is that depending on foot proportions, more often than not (there are exceptions) Method 2 will yield a more rearward cleat position again than Method1. If it does in your case, it is an ideal method for what I term ‘serious social riders’; TT riders, Audax riders, touring riders, or endurance riders. If following Method 2 gives a result of less foot over the pedal than Method 1, give it a try, but depending on what you are doing on a bike, your calves might be a limiting factor and Method 1 a better solution for this minority.

Method 3, midfoot is where a bit of commitment is needed in either buying custom shoes or in modifying existing ones, in toe overlap and other matters. It is also the cleat position that is far and away the best if the rider’s requirement is long,  sustained performance at high or low intensity. It is no accident that a disproportionate number of successful RAAM riders use a midfoot cleat position. It is also the position I would advise as being the best for triathlon (a study confirming this will be made public soon)  because the much lower loading on the calves leads to increased performance when running off the bike.  Specialist TT riders should investigate it too. This is not the best cleat position if you are a specialist crit rider who needs to sprint frequently to close gaps etc.

A lot of people roll their eyes or shake their heads when the subject of Midfoot cleat position comes up. All I will say is that if you have tried it,  your opinion is valid whether you enjoyed or disliked the experience. If you haven’t tried it, you don’t have an  opinion. You are speculating.

Why the focus on reducing load on the calves?

When we push on the pedals the common simple view is that the gluteals extend the hip and the quadriceps extend the knee. That is not quite accurate. The hamstrings play a role in assisting the glutes and in controlling the rate of contraction of the quads. All you have to do is place a hand in the belly of your hamstrings while pedaling to feel that the hamstrings are contracting on the down stroke even though the muscle group is extending as a whole. The hamstring tendons cross the knee joint attaching to both the tibia and fibula . Below the knee the gastrocnemius (major bulk of the calves) tendons cross the knee and attach to the femur. Because both the hamstrings and gastrocs work across the knee, the net effect of contraction in both is help the quads extend the knee. But the further forward the cleats relative to foot in shoe, the harder the calves (gastrocs and soleus) have to also work to help stablilise ankle and foot. My working theory, (I call it this because it seems to hold up empirically) is that when the calves are loaded heavily enough for long enough, they are the first muscle group involved in the pedaling action to ‘give up’ which affects pedaling action in a variety of ways. One of them being the  ’dead’ quads feeling familiar to many who have their cleats too far forward.

All the cleat positioning methods above have a positive effect on reducing the load on the calves and giving a much more solid feel to foot on pedal than BOFOPA.. Which one you choose will depend on your interest in the subject and what kind of riding your prioritise. Which one I choose for a client depends on what their needs are, what type of riding profile they have and how interested they are in experimenting. Some general guidance:

Method 1 is ideal for road, criterium and mtb racing.

Method 2 is ideal for TT, Triathlon, Audax, serious social riding, recreational riding or any event where there tends not be sudden changes of pace.

Method 3 is ideal for any event requiring sustained effort, whether of high or low intensity. TT, Triathlon, Audax, long road races and serious social riding.

There are exceptions but which one you choose is up to you.

Thank you for reading.

Explanatory note: If you have read “Why Bikefitters Shouldn’t Chew Their Nails” and determined a reference mark for the centre of the ball of the foot on your shoes using the method outlined in that post; the rest of the procedure for placing your cleats (once you’ve determined where you want them) is as follows.

1.  Place your bike on an indoor trainer and pedal for 10 minutes, warming up until you are riding with reasonable load. The load needs to be heavy enough for you to be working hard but without sacrificing technique. Observe the angle of your feet on the pedals. It may be toe in, toe out or straight ahead. It may vary between feet. Make a mental note of that angle.

2.  Remove your shoes and place one of them in the pedal. Make sure that crank arm is forward and horizontal. Viewing from the opposite side of the bike (so that you can see the pen mark on the shoe and its’ relationship to the pedal axle), make sure that the shoe is leveled between where the sole joins the upper at mid heel, and where the sole joins the upper underneath the ball of the foot. With many shoes this will give the appearance of being heel down but what we are trying to achieve is leveling the foot inside the shoe. Most shoes have a ‘heel lift’ in the shoe last shape and a sole that is thickens underneath the cleat mounting area, so the heel will appear to be down when the foot is level.

3.  Again viewing from the opposite side of the bike, use a T square or rule held vertically, to determine where the pen mark indicating the centre of the ball of the foot is in relation to the centre of the pedal axle. Make sure that the shoe is being held in the pedal at the approximate rotational angle that you observed from above when pedaling under load. Measure the axle centre to pen mark distance and adjust forwards or backwards as necessary until you achieve the desired placement.

4.  Repeats steps 2and 3with the other shoe.

5.  Now go for a ride and find a clear stretch of road without traffic or obstacles, accelerate to at least 30 – 35 km/h and stop pedaling with the right foot forward. Take care to keep your foot from swiveling as you stop pedaling. With the foot forward, attempt to turn the heel inwards. Is there available free play?

If not, stop and adjust the angle of the cleat. Remember: if you want your heel to move in, the nose of the cleat needs to point in towards the centre line of the bike.

If there was inward movement, continue again, accelerate to 30 – 35 km/h, stop pedaling again and attempt to move your heel outwards. Is there available freeplay?

If not, stop and adjust the angle of the cleat. Remember: if you want to move your heel outward, the nose of the cleat needs to point more outwards from the centre line of the bike.

Keep repeating this until under load, you foot position angle on the cleat allows you free movement either side of where your foot naturally wants to sit under load.

6.  Repeat step 5 on the left side.

Further Explanatory note:  Some pedal systems, notably Shimano SPD – SL with yellow tipped cleat and Look Keo with grey cleat have so little rotational adjustment range that the above process can be frustrating and time consuming. With Look Keo’s, if this is a problem, it is cheap insurance to use the red cleats instead of the grey cleats as the red version have double the rotational movement. With the SPD –SL’s, there is no extra free play option. The bottom line is that you need to be patient to get the best result possible.

7.  Ideally, the centre of the midfoot should be below the centre of the knee as the knee extends. If your hips are noticeably naturally externally or internally rotated (that is toes pointing out or toes pointing in) to a large degree while pedaling, this can be hard to achieve with most three bolt pedal systems, particularly the 2 mentioned above as angling the cleat also uses up the potential to move the cleat across the shoe. If you develop problems because of this, I would suggest Speedplay pedals because they are the only road pedal that separates the rotational and lateral cleat adjustment functions. Additonally, Speedplay make 5 different axle lengths which between them will accommodate most riders needs.

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  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Eric,
    Joe bumped into Gotz a few years ago and Gotz triggered his
    interest as he did mine. I’m also aware of studies that show there is no
    advantage but the ones that I’ve seen allowed no habituation time. That is
    that athletes who are used to pedalling with a forefoot cleat position were
    changed to midfoot and told “go for it” without more than 30 mins or so to
    get used to the different muscle firing sequence dictated by a massive
    change in cleat position.

    I’ll explain, force feedback from the feet as well as the position in space
    of the rider over the bike determines any individuals motor pattern (muscle
    firing sequence) while pedalling. This is a learnt behaviour. If someone
    instantly changes your or that of anyone else , the motor pattern doesn’t
    instantly change with it. The rider still fires muscles in the same sequence
    that they are used to for a period that varies individually from hours to
    weeks, meaning they are out of sync with the demands of the position. The
    best way to learn a new motor pattern in a new position is to ride that new
    position at low to moderate intensity only, for 3 weeks. At those
    intensities we adapt because the cardiovascular and muscular systems are not
    under pressure. At high intensities the rider instantly falls back into a
    motor pattern they are used to but which is out of sync with the demands of
    the new position.

    I have yet to see a study on midfoot cleat position that allows for a
    reasonable habituation period. Even so, the studies I have seen showed that
    the subjects performed no worse and those that need to run off the bike,
    were able to run to substantially quicker. That the subjects performed no
    worse, despite the lack of habituation leaves open the question as to how
    they would perform with reasonable habituation time. I’ve also learned to
    ignore comments from anyone who does not have first hand experience with
    midfoot. The idea excites an emotive response rather than a rational one in
    some people.

    It is not necessarily the best solution for every rider or for every type of
    riding as I will explain when I finish this as yet unfinished post, but it
    is a valid option that is well worth trying.

    Your physio is partly right by the way; the calves through a force couple
    with the hamstrings help the quads extend the knee at high load and I plan
    to talk about that later in this unfinished post. One last word, the most
    common mistake that most people make when trying midfoot is to have their
    seat height too high. Midfoot requires a greater bend in the knee at the
    bottom of the pedal stroke than forefoot cleat position.

  • Rick

    Great stuff and very interesting. Having trouble via “link” for ball of foot location. Could you recommend another way to get info.

    Thanks, Rick

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com stevehoggbikefitting.com

      Hi Rick – The links are fixed… Sorry about that. Thanks for reading!

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Yuri,
    I think there are a few problems in having a longer plastic
    baseplate. Once more rearward than the ‘normal’ cleat mounting area, the
    shape and curve of shoes soles varies a lot from brand to brand. With the
    part no. 13330, the plug in adaptors that allow the baseplate to conform to
    the sole are still in the same position as those of the plastic shorter
    baseplate but with extra aluminium extension of 13330 cantilevered back from
    that unsupported. The alu baseplate is strong enough to withstand pedaling
    loads with the rear mounted cleat position of the two choices but I don’t
    see how a plastic baseplate would be strong enough.

    Re your other point; I agree, if in doubt, a more rearward cleat position is
    a lesser evil than a too far forward one.

    I’m glad that you’re still going well.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Eric,
    Not necessarily. I advise revisiting seat setback once a
    midfoot conversion has taken place. Basically at high load and assuming
    reasonable function and on bike pelvic stability, the rider should be using
    their arms as relaxed props, not ‘structural supports’ with the great
    majority of their weight borne on the seat. Many people who convert to
    midfoot find that they can move their seats forward because the greater
    stability of feet on pedal improves on seat stability. This is not a
    universal ‘rule’, just an observation because there are plenty of
    exceptions.

    Seat setback will be the subject of an upcoming post.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Michelle,
    I don’t think toe lift in shoe lasts makes a lot of
    difference to cleat position. Heel lift does though. Most manufacturers have
    reduced heel lift in cycling shoes substantially over the last 15 or so
    years which is a good thing. Too much heel lift creates problems when
    cycling and cleat position needs to move even further back in an effort to
    reduce the ill effects of heel lift.
    Why Shimano have the degree of toe lift they do I’m not sure. I run a pair
    of high toe lift Shimano shoes and another pair with little toe lift and
    can’t tell the difference. Possibly others are more sensitive than I am.
    Anyone reading know why Shimano do this?

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Lawrence,
    I don’t know that there is necessarily a predictable
    relationship between the two as individual response to a change in either
    varies significantly.
    If you move your cleats back 10mm, then *generally* seat height would drop
    somewhat because you are reducing ankle movement somewhat as well as
    extending the leg more. I underlined ‘generally’ because I’ve seen
    exceptions where a more rearward cleat position caused a change to the
    rider’s pedalling technique to the extent that seat height could be left
    unchanged or on rare occasions raised.

    As to the rest; get yourself an indoor trainer. A cheap Tacx wind trainer
    will do. I’m a fan of wind trainers.

  • Ericj076

    are you a fan on Rotor Q rings, steve?

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Eric,
      On a personal level yes. I ride a midfoot cleat position and
      Rotors have solved or near solved my lack of sprinting ability compared to
      when I rode a forefoot cleat position. That is in position 4. Feedback from
      other midfoot riders suggests that position 4 is probably the way to go for
      midfoot cleat position users.
      For forefoot cleat position users, I get mixed reports for Rotors with the
      majority being positive; some saying no difference in performance, a small
      minority saying a lessening of performance.

  • Michelle

    Just a brief followup if I may Steve. You use the 1st MTP joint where many others use the head of the first metatarsal. Why do you chose this as your reference point?
    Also, when levelling the shoe at the crank, how do you compensate for shoes (like shimano) whose sole continues into the heel cup and therefore doesn’t effectively meet the upper until virtually the midheel?
    Many thanks again.

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Michelle,
      I’m not sure what others do. I use the joint line because
      it is easy to find with a bit of practice and is a more clearly defined
      location than the “head of the 1st MT”. If using the head of the 1st MT,
      what part?
      Top, bottom, middle?
      Which ever choice as viewed from the side or as viewed from the top etc?

      It is a large protrusion and I find it more repeatable to use the joint line
      because it is a more clearly defined point. I use the vertical midpoint of
      the joint line as viewed from the side. Once I find the joint line and to
      test accuracy, I place a pen tip where I think the vertical midpoint is and
      then gently dorsiflex the subject’s toe. If the pen tip doesn’t move, that
      is the midpoint or axis of the joint. If the pen tip moves, then that isn’t
      the axis.

      As to the second part of your question, can you be a bit more explicit?

      I’m not sure what you mean by compensate. What I’m always trying to do is to
      level the foot but because shoes have a sole thickness that varies from toe
      to heel as well as differing degrees of toe lift and heel lift in the last
      (as viewed from the side) there is always an element of ‘guesstimation’ in
      this. I’m big on trying to reduce variables but this is one area where that
      is not completely possible.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Michelle,
    Yes, I did guess as much . What Shimano shoes do you have?
    The only shoes I’ve seen where the sole wraps up around the heel are Bonts, the top of the line Lake and shoes of similar ‘bathtub’ construction. I’ve never seen a Shimano shoe with that type of construction.

    With bathtub construction shoes there is no foolproof method so the best guesstimation you can make has to suffice. Even marking the centre of the 1st MTP is not foolproof on bathtub construction shoes because the carbon ‘sole’ wraps up around the edges of the feet preventing me using my usual method for transferring the centre of the 1st MTP joint space to the outside of the shoe. The only solution I have found is to find the joint space at the top of the joint, place my ‘lump’ on it and then fit the shoe, mark the ‘lump’ on top of the shoe and then transcribe that mark further down the side of the shoe.

    This is far from ideal but the best compromise I have found to date other than drilling holes in the bathtub carbon shell.

    Sorry I digress. I’m still not sure what you mean because nothing I’ve said above applies to any Shimano shoe that I have seen.

  • mirceaandreighinea

    I am waiting for your writing about pedaling technique (heel dropping; run of the mill; toe down etc). Why some choose one and not the other? I look at the pro-riders and all have differnt pedaling technique. I understand that under high load a rider tends to drop their heels, but what about “normal” pedaling on a flat road?

    Now, that Philippe Gilbert is the man of the moment in cycling, winning last three races (Amstel Gold, Flèche Wallone and Liège-Bastogne-Liège), i watched him carefully. He is so extreme in toe down – heel up! Why?

    Regards,
    Mircea

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Mircea,
      I’ll put that on the list of posts to write. The next large
      post will be in answer to your letter about pelvic shapes and how to sit on
      a bike well.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Darren,
    In position 2, a Q ring has more teeth engaged earlier in the pedal stroke than it does in position 3,4 or 5. That suits you better seated but when off the seat you are further forward over the bottom bracket and will feel better with more chain ring teeth engaged later in the pedal stroke; i.e. position 5.

    I would suggest moving to position 4 for all of your riding on both chain rings and spending a good month riding exclusively like that. That is long enough for habituation. At the end of that time you will either be happy with 4 for both seated and off the seat riding or you won’t. I think it is very likely but not completely certain that you will be happy with some time spend to accustom muscles to firing in the appropriate sequence. If you aren’t happy after a month, then you will never be. If that is what ends up happening, we’ll talk about Plan B.

    Re the footy, and without any disrespect to the mighty Maroons (who will be playing without ring ins tonight for a change ) naturally I’m hoping for an upset win by the Blues. With all the bs that has gone on the game should be a cracker!

  • Darren

    Thanks Steve for your prompt reply. I have one of my biggest events of the year coming up in two weekends time (Tour de Tablelands….3 road races & 1 tt over 3 days). I’m thinking about waiting till after this to change my chain rings position to no. 4 or do you think I should do it straightaway? Also do you think I should change my tt bike’s q ring orientation as well or leave them at no. 2 as nearly all of tting is performed seated?

    Thanks again & have a good weekend.

    Darren

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Darren,
      First rule of racing; never race anything you haven’t
      ridden for several weeks. As you use a midfoot cleat position, I think it
      likely that position 4 would be worthwhile but the only way to know is to do
      it. If the race is important to you and you are performing well, I would
      leave the change in orientation until after the race. Say hi to Des, Kerry
      and of course Kirsty.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Nate,
    Nothing untoward will happen if you use a cleat position
    halfway between Method 2 and Method 3. The 3 Methods are not graven in
    stone. They are an attempt on my part to give a more functionally realistic
    frame of reference for cleat position than the ubiquitous”ball of the foot
    over the pedal axle” recommendation that I’m sick to death of reading about.

    By all means experiment. If you are sensible you will be fine.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Will,
    How many possibilities do you want?
    There are plenty. Which one or combination applies to you I don’t know. If
    you have damaged the lateral meniscus of the left knee some factor of
    combination of factors is challenging the plane of movement of your left
    knee. The task for you is to find out what causes this loading. The two most
    common reasons are an inability to sit squarely on the seat or a less than
    ideal footplant cant on the pedal that hasn’t been compensated for.

    Several questions:
    1. Does one leg feel stronger or more fluent than the other?’
    If so, which?
    2. Mount your bike on a trainer and warm up thoroughly. Take your jersey
    off. Have an observer standing above (on a stool or chair) and behind you.
    Which hip do you drop or which hip is further forward than the other?

    Let me know and I’ll attempt to help. Knee issues are usually easy to solve.
    At least in person. Email is harder as I’m sure you understand.

    • Will

      Good Afternoon Steve,

      I will aim to answer those questions shortly, and thank you very much for your help. As a possible aside can having a cleat mounted midfoot eliminate some of the loading issues with knees or am I getting mixed up?

      I appreciate you are limited by email and the fact that you even reply to people is very generous already in my books.

      Thanks again Will

      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

        G’day Will,
        With the right advice you should be able to sort your knee out
        with any decent cleat position option. Midfoot alone is not a solution to
        knee pain. My feeling is that the plane of movement of your left knee is
        being constantly challenged and that is what caused the meniscal damage and
        what continues to cause you pain. I’m happy to try and help but I need you
        to answer the questions I asked earlier in this exchange.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Duane,
    Read “Why Bikefitters Shouldn’t Chew Their Nails”. The
    answer to your question is in the first 4 or 5 paragraphs.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Duane,
    There is no ‘problem’ per se with more rearward cleat
    movement. As the cleat moves backward, progressively ankle movement is
    reduced (and this combined with the altered cleat position means seat height
    needs to change and almost always drop) and ‘snap’ in off the seat
    accelerations and sprint efforts is reduced BUT often at the improvement of
    the rider to sustain effort. So it is a trade off. Method 1 is for all round
    performance riding for those who want to sustain effort but not sacrifice
    their jump in a sprint or an attack; or those who want a simple approach.
    Method 2 is variable because it is based on foot proportions. Method 3 or
    anywhere between Method 2 and 3 tends to even out torque production but this
    can come at the cost of sprinting ability to varying degrees.

    Further back can also highlight and exacerbate existing problems. Many
    people pedal with a slightly different ankle movement and foot angle (toe
    down / heel down etc) on each leg. This is their autonomic way of
    compensating for a measurable or functional LLD, OR a Challenge to their
    position from whatever source. Reducing ankle movement by moving cleats a
    long way will not create a problem if done properly. However, reducing ankle
    movement can highlight or increase an existing problem that the rider wasn’t
    previously aware of.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Duane,
    There is no ‘problem’ per se with more rearward cleat
    movement. As the cleat moves backward, progressively ankle movement is
    reduced (and this combined with the altered cleat position means seat height
    needs to change and almost always drop) and ‘snap’ in off the seat
    accelerations and sprint efforts is reduced BUT often at the improvement of
    the rider to sustain effort. So it is a trade off. Method 1 is for all round
    performance riding for those who want to sustain effort but not sacrifice
    their jump in a sprint or an attack; or those who want a simple approach.
    Method 2 is variable because it is based on foot proportions. Method 3 or
    anywhere between Method 2 and 3 tends to even out torque production but this
    can come at the cost of sprinting ability to varying degrees.

    Further back can also highlight and exacerbate existing problems. Many
    people pedal with a slightly different ankle movement and foot angle (toe
    down / heel down etc) on each leg. This is their autonomic way of
    compensating for a measurable or functional LLD, OR a Challenge to their
    position from whatever source. Reducing ankle movement by moving cleats a
    long way will not create a problem if done properly. However, reducing ankle
    movement can highlight or increase an existing problem that the rider wasn’t
    previously aware of.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Alex,
    Here is what is likely to be going on. You don’t have a
    problem on you MTB because of the more upright torso position is kinder to
    you than a dropped handle bar position on a road bike. The left side issues
    are all down to you dropping or rotating your right hip forward on your road
    bike. When this happens, the left leg overextends (hamstring / hip flexor
    discomfort) and the plane of movement of the left leg is challenged ( left
    foot wiggling around). So a suggested plan of action would be:
    1. Read the posts on seat height and make sure that too high a seat isn’t a
    contributing factor.
    2. Make sure that your reach down and out to the bars is slightly
    conservative. That will help minimise any existing tendency to pelvic
    asymmetry.
    3. Read the foot correction posts. Start with arch support as suggested.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Velotoday,
    I’m not sure that I understand your question.
    Sacrificing by comparison with what?
    Maybe you’re sacrificing calf cramping and lower heart rate / power output
    efficiency as you said.

    I have no knowledge of what you do or of how you function on a bike so I am
    at a loss to answer. Can you provide more info please?

  • Ericj076

    steve mentioned in a previous post that you sacrifice some of your “jump” in a quick acceleration, and i would say that’s true from the little i have experimented with it.

    goetz heine believes that, once adapted, you can have just as strong of an acceleration though. i’m not totally sure i agree.

    steve, what are your thoughts on that?

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Eric,
      I can only speak from my own experience and those of riders I
      know who have chosen to convert to midfoot. This is: Accelerating hard off
      the seat in too high a gear is as good or possibly even better than with
      modified forefoot cleat position. Doing the same in the individually ideal
      gear or too low a gear is worse. However, if using Rotor Q rings in position
      4, or as Gotz does, using a Biopace ring rotated clockwise 1 hole from its
      intended mounting position, improves things markedly. To the point or almost
      to the point, where there is little difference.

  • Darren Spina

    Hi Steve

    I changed my Rotor Q Rings from pos 2 to 4 as you suggested and they felt fine straight away. I am just starting to build up again for another one of our major races in 8 weeks so not doing too much intensity for the next few weeks but I don’t think I’ll have any trouble adapting to the change & hopefully the it will help my sprinting. I am thinking that because I now use the mid foot cleat position this has helped this feel good straight away as previously I tried pos 4 without mid foot and I didn’t like it at all and it caused me to take off the q rings & revert back to round chain rings.
    Good game of footy coming up in a couple of weeks. Good to see Souths have a win last weekend. I’ll let you know how my sprinting is going in a month or so. Des & Kerry say hello. Say hi to Margaret & kids for us.Regards Darren & Kirsty.

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Darren,
      I’m glad that position 4 seems to work better. You’re
      about the 20th person using midfoot cleat position who’s felt position 4 is
      the pick. I don’t know whether position 4 / midfoot is a universal thing but
      starting to look like it might be.

      About time the Bunnies had a win. They’re playing better with a more or less
      no name forward pack with converted wingers and 5/8 than they were before
      the big names got injured.

      Blues vs Maroons. Dunno. Down here the media seem to think the Blues are a
      shoo in based on the 2nd Origin game. I didn’t see it that way. I thought
      either side was one missed tackle away from a runaway try for large parts of
      the match. Maroons at home……….going to be tough. Your neighbour Matt
      had a red hot go but they swarmed all over him each time he got the ball.

      Say hi to all and hope you haven’t finished all that Belgian beer yet!

  • Darren Spina

    PS The website is getting better all the time. D

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Doug,
    This is actually a tough question to answer. I have found it
    pointless in measuring the cleat mounting hole position from any landmark on
    the sole of a shoe and making a judgement, because shoe sole design and how
    the upper relates to the sole and how a particular upper locates the foot
    varies quite a bit from brand to brand. So the list below is based on the
    brands that that I have the least amount of trouble with achieving a
    desirable cleat position for a client to the ones where I have the most
    amount of trouble as far as gaining whatever cleat position I am seeking for
    them. The list only refers to 3 hole mounts, not direct mount 4 hole
    Speedplay shoes.

    *Best Group for a rearward cleat position*
    Shimano, Gaerne, Diadora, Lake, Specialized in no particular order

    *Next Best Group for a rearward cleat position*
    Sidi, Louis Garneau (recent models) in no particular order

    *Worst Group for a rearward cleat position*
    Mavic, Pearl Izumi, Adidas, Vittoria, Bontrager, Carnac in no particular
    order

    Pedal choice also plays a part in this. I’ve listed the popular road pedals
    below.

    *Pedal with most rearward cleat adjustment*
    Speedplay X series, Zero or Light Action when combined with part no. 13330
    extender baseplate.

    *Second best*
    Time I Click, Time RXS, Keywin

    *Third best*
    Shimano Spd SL

    *Fourth best*
    Speedplay X series, Zero or Light Action with standard baseplate, Look Keo

    There are two other variables; how well the shoe fits (never be tempted to
    go up a size to gain width; buy a wider shoe) and the proportions of the
    riders foot. Long toes on a shorter foot versus short toes on a longer foot
    for same foot length etc.

    I hope this helps.
    *
    *
    *
    *

    • Doug from Florida

      Yes, it helps tremendously, thank you very much!

      Best,
      Doug

  • R_casalini

    Hi Steve,
    Your web is great.
    I am an audax type rider and i use sidi mountain bike shoes and shimano touring a600 pedals. I drilled some holes in the shoes and now my cleats are about 4.5cm behind the ball of foot. I like this set up a lot, and would like to experiment the mid foot cleat position, i have three questions for you:
    1. Where should i drill the holes to get the cleats in the correct mid foot position?
    2. What kind of hardware do you use to make sure that the screws and bolts do not bother the underside of the feet?
    3. Paris brest paris starts on the 21st of august: is there enough time to adapt or should i leave this experiment for september?
    Thanks a lot for your help
    Ranieri

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Ranieri,
      Answer to Q1: Drill the holes so that the cleat is
      mounted under the highest point of the arch of the foot.

      Answer to Q2: Nothing out of the ordinary. Try to make sure that the fixing
      bolts don’t protrude through the soles into the shoe but even if they do,
      they will be under the highest point of your arch which means that unless
      you have flat feet, there will be no screw to foot contact.

      Answer to Q3: You should be able to adapt in time without problem (assuming
      there are no hiccups) but I would wait until after PBP. I don’t know what
      sized your foot is but I’m a 44 and midfoot leaves the centre of the ball of
      my foot 60mm in front of the pedal axle. If your feet are smaller than mine,
      you are getting towards midfoot. If larger, you still have a lot of foot
      over the pedal. Even so, I would wait. Why?
      Because PBP only comes along every fourth year. You have trained for 4 years
      as you are so why add a variable this late in the day. Midfoot cleat
      position is easy to adapt to but what might take a bit of time is getting
      seat height right and any changes in foot correction and so on. Why put
      pressure on yourself when you have 4 years to experiment post PBP until
      next time?

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Ranieri,
    It depends on your shoes. The easiest way to go midfoot
    is to get a pair of Biomacs. Failing that, Shimano are by far the easiest
    shoes to convert. The centre of the cleat should be 45mm inboard of the
    widest part of the shoe. Get over PBP and if still interested, we’ll talk
    more.

    Re your taking your hands off the bars; it seems like you are not sitting
    squarely on the seat.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day mtnhack,
    You’ve asked a hard question to answer because you
    don’t tell me where your cleats are positioned now. I suggest you use the
    method outlined in the post to determine what your effective cleat position
    is before going further. That way you have a basis for comparison. You may
    find for instance, that you already have a Method 1 or more rearward cleat
    position and that the problem is related to seat height of lack of foot
    correction or your foot morphology. So, start with establishing a baseline
    measurement of where your cleats are now, relative to foot in shoe.

    • mtnhack

      Thanks for the quick reply. My current setup is dead center BOFOPA under zero-load and shoe at horizontal level. I was fit in a lab in Boulder, CO based on video analysis, but have since swapped shoes. I went to the old standard of BOFOPA, but now see that heel drop under load may be throwing that measurement severely off.

      I thought about foot correction being a solution to my issue, but I thought I would attempt cleat position first as it is something I can do on my own. Is this a bad idea? Is there a flow chart of possible solutions that should be attempted?

      Thanks again. Your articles and assistance are invaluable.

      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Jason (Steve’s web guy)

        Hi mtnhack – There’s no flow chart, per se, but give a look at question no. 4 here: http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/faq/

      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

        G’day mtnhack,
        If you are using BOFOPA, that is the likely major
        reason for your foot pain / numbness. As you drop the heel there is tension
        in all the ligaments and the plantar fascia under the foot. The combined
        effect is to put pressure on the metatarsal heads and there are sensitive
        nerves between each pair and that is probably what is causing your issue.
        Moving the cleats back to Method 1 or further will likely resolve the
        problem and worst case, reduce it markedly. Give it a try and let me know
        what happens.

        • mtnhack

          Steve, when thumbing through some action shots of my pedaling, I noticed that I have quite a bit more heel drop than I thought. I decided on a cleat movement of 16mm. I also moved the seat forward slightly and down a mm or so.

          I just completed a 6+ hour race with the new position and Viola! no foot pain at all. As I mentioned before, lately any ride over 4-4.5 hours resulted in extreme plantar fascia pain. Problem solved! Thank you very much.

          I did however cramp pretty severely in both hamstrings/quads, but I think it probably had more to do with the hot conditions and my extreme effort than the new position. Thoughts?

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            G’day Mtnhack,
            I’m glad that you got a result. Re the hammie / quad
            cramping; it depends. If it was hot, you perspired freely and rode harder
            for longer than you are used to, then cramps are not really surprising. It
            might be positional though. If you moved your cleats back 16mm, you will
            almost certainly have needed to drop your seat height. Possibly up to 10mm.
            Did you do this?

            Also to, you were riding a race with a relatively new (for you) cleat
            position which means a change in muscle enlistment patterns that you may not
            be used to yet. Keep me posted.

          • mtnhack

            I did drop the seat, but not nearly that much (3-5mm max). I did push very hard and perspired profusely and I am sure these two things are mostly to blame, but maybe new/different muscle recruitment contributed. So I feel that I need to leave things be for the moment to see how things work out with this setup. I will let you know how things progress later in the season, but for now, thanks again for the cleat adjustment advice; it was nice to be able to finish the race AND be able to stand on my feet afterward.

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            G’day Mtnhack,
            Pain free is good. Best of luck.

            Regards,
            Steve

            STEVE HOGG
            COMFORT+EFFICIENCY=PERFORMANCE
            for more, see http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com

            *I apologise if my reply is tardy.
            We experience periodic email overload and the only thing I can promise is to
            wade through, mail by mail.*

    • Jimbo5

      Hi Steve, very interested in your answer here (numb feet rider myself). You mention seat height as a potential contributor/cause. Why is that?

      Cheers James.

      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

        G’day Jimbo,
        When the seat is too high, the rider will compensate. Two
        of the many and varied methods of compensation are as follows.

        1. Rider explosively extends the leg early in the pedal stroke with a lot of
        heel drop and then more or less coasts through the bottom of the pedal
        stroke. This will work to varying degrees on the flat but the rider doing
        this will struggle on climbs because he/she cannot get through BDC very well
        under constant load (as there is on a climb because momentum plays less of
        a part in getting the rider through BDC and TDC in the pedal stroke) That
        forceful heel drop early to midway through the down stroke puts a lot of
        strain on the plantar fascia and ligaments under the sole of the foot. In
        turn that can place stress on the metatarsal joint heads and irritate the
        nerve plexus between each of them.

        2. Rider forcefully plantarflexes the ankle (points the toes) at the bottom
        of the stroke merely to reach through BDC. These are often the riders who
        use excessive ankle movement. That forceful plantarflexion puts a solid load
        on the area of the foot above where the cleat is. If the rider uses BOFOPA
        or close to it, then numb or sore forefeet can be the result.

        I stress that both of these compensations CAN cause foot numbness and often
        do but there is large individual variance. Torque analysis of the riders
        that do have foot numbness caused by too high a seat will always shows a
        significant higher peak and lower trough in the curve than the same rider
        with a more sensible seat height.

  • Caroline Adcock

    Hi Steve,
    I came across your site when researching new pedals/shoes for my also new road bike and I’m blown away by the amount and quality of information you provide! In your opinion, can the type of cleat, its position and setup have an impact on the development or aggravation of bunions? I know this might be an odd question, but over the last year when I taught 6+ Spinning classes every week in mtb shoes (that seemed to fit at the time) on spd pedals (of course with no mind paid to the setup of the whole thing), my feet have started to bother me. When I put the same pedals on my road bike (“I know, major faux pas for some but it’s only until I figure out what the best option is”) using the same shoes on my road bike, it really gets uncomfy (numb toes etc). Now I get it that I probably need bigger, wider, stiffer shoes (waiting for a pair of Specialized come in to try on) but I want to make sure that I also get pedals along with it that make sense. Any thoughts would be highly appreciated!

    Thanks, Caroline

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Caroline,
      Thank you for your positive thoughts. The answer to your
      question is yes. If a shoe rubs, is too tight or is poorly set up, the
      development of bunions or the aggravation of existing ones can be the
      result. There is no problem with riding mtb shoes and pedals on a road bike
      other than they offer less options if there is the need for shimming, non
      standard foot separation distance or wedging. The other potential problem
      is that many mtb pedals and shoes rely on the tread blocks on the shoe sole
      contacting the pedal body to provide stability. Unless that happens, the
      contact area of cleat and pedal is so small that for many, their feet rock
      and roll on the pedal in a semi controlled fashion.

      One advantage of mtb shoes and pedals is that it is uncommon to find a rider
      who cannot gain Method 1 cleat position with a standard pair of shoes and
      pedals. With road shoes and pedals, I’d say that approximately 40% of my fit
      clients can’t do this unless they change to Speedplay with the optional
      extender baseplate. If it helps, there will be an article about Shoes and
      Pedals in the Publications section going up in the next few weeks. It is
      something that was published here a few years back but the basics still
      hold true. Jason (our web guy) and I have to find time to edit and load it.
      We’re trying.

      Basically, shoes need to fit well. That means they will feel 1/2 to one size
      smaller than running shoes but there should be no sense of lateral
      compression of the MTP joints or rubbing anywhere; just the feeling that the
      shoe is an extension of the foot. The rest of the info you need is contained
      in the various posts on the site. Oh, one thing more. I’ve seen my first few
      pairs of Giro shoes and they seem to have more rearward cleat mounting
      holes, relative to foot in shoe, than most other shoes out there.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day M Villaneuva,
    Or should I say Senor Newhouse?
    I think that is the English translation of your name but my Spanish is far
    worse than your English. Your English is fine and I understand your
    questions. 9mm difference in foot length is 1.5 shoe sizes which is a lot.
    Are you able to achieve Method 1 and Method 2 cleat positions on BOTH feet,
    or only on the larger right foot?

    If you are able to get the correct cleat position, you will probably need a
    shim under the left shoe because a 9mm shorter left foot, functionally
    shortens the left leg. On that subject, a 9mm difference in foot length
    almost certainly means that one of your legs is longer than the other or
    that you have had a large lateral pelvic tilt from an early age. Unless of
    course the difference in size is the result of a bad accident. It would be
    worth your while to read the Foot Correction post on Shimming too.

    To your problem; with such a disparity in foot size you may have to buy 2
    pairs of shoes; one for the right foot and one for the left foot. It is
    important that both shoes fit well and the size difference between them
    makes this unlikely with a single pair of shoes.

    Re foot width; for your foot length, your feet are moderately wide but not
    excessively so. I really suggest that you get a shoe that fits each foot
    which means 2 pairs in different sizes. That is the best solution to the
    shoe fitting problem. Once you have that, then position the cleats again and
    if you run into any trouble, let me know.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day M Villaneuva,
    I would ask your physiotherapist for more
    information about the hip rotation. My experience is that when a foot size
    difference is as large as yours is, then there is always a functionally or
    measurably shorter leg. If the leg length difference is functional, then it
    should be able to be corrected over time with the right advice and
    treatment.

    Can you self measure any difference?
    This is very hard. It is better to have an X ray or scan.

    Can you see the difference?
    Yes. Face a mirror with your shirt off. Now place your thumbs underneath
    your rib cage and move them down until they contact the top of your pelvis.
    Almost certainly, you will see that you are higher on one side than the
    other.

    Re shoes; Bont will sell you a pair of shoes with different sizes for left
    and right. Other than that, the heat moldable shoes are not going to allow
    you to adjust the shoe length, only how well they fit around the foot.

    Re Speedplay compatible shoes; buy ones with the 3 hole mount NOT the 4 hole
    mount. You have a significant difference between left and right sides and
    will almost certainly need a shim under one foot. This will be a LOT easier
    to do if you are using a 3 hole mount shoe.

    • M_villanueva

      Hi Steve,

      I tried to see which leg is bigger, and the left leg (small foot) is longer than the right.
      I’ll talk to my phisiotherapist and try to do a x-ray to know the exact difference between legs.

      Thanks very much for your help.

      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

        G’day M,
        Yes, please do. Often the significantly longer foot is on the
        shorter leg or the leg that is pulled higher at the hip by a pelvic tilt. A
        childhood spent with one foot falling further and hitting the ground harder
        tends to be the reason.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Marc,
    Ideal Q factor comes down to pelvis width and hip / lower
    back function. Or should I say hip lower back / dysfunction. I’ve got to get around to writing the final Foot Correction post which will deal with this topic. In the meantime, the centre of the knee should descend over the centre of the midfoot area. If the knee is further out than that, the feet need to be moved outboard under the knee. If the knee is further in, then the feet need to be moved inboard (in most circumstances).

    If one knee only sits out, then look at the pelvis and in most cases you will find the rider is not sitting squarely on the seat. In cases like this, it is often valuable to move the foot of the side that tracks well outboard too and see what results. As I keep saying, any Challenges evokes an asymmetric pattern of compensation. So often, too narrow a Q will result in the rider keeping one knee tracking well and cocking the other one out substantially.

    Re Cavendish; my mail is that he is world class inflexible which would explain the wider pedal separation.
    Re trends; I keep detailed records. Over the last 3 years, the percentage of my clients that have needed wider than standard foot separation (wider pedal axles or the addition of pedal extenders) has remained constant at 16 – 17% and the percentage that need narrower than standard foot separation (shorter than standard pedal axles) is 5%.

    I think what you are seeing isn’t so much a trend as greater availability of
    the means to alter foot separation distance.

  • Joey_s

    Steve, whats the widest pedal axle out in the market? I’m currently using 2011 crankbrothers both my bike mtb & road and as you know I can’t install those 20mm steel spaces on crankbrothers axle. I push my cleats as far in as possible to widen my stance. Is shimano pedals wider stance then Crankbrothers etc..? Or is there a manufacturer that makes longer pedal axle for these brands like shimano etc?

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Joey,
      Most pedals measure 53 – 55 mm from crank face to centre of
      platform. From memory mtb Eggbeaters are wider but I can’t remember by how much. If you need wider, how much more?

      Mtb’s have a pedal separation width of 25 – 40mm wider than road pedals to start with. If you need wider again, you will need to find some mtb pedals with a wrench flat on the pedal axle and use 20, 25 or 30mm pedal spacers.
      With road pedals, Speedplay make a variety of axle lengths up to plus 12.7mm. In addition, pedal spacers are the only option I’m aware of.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    More info please Duane

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Toby,
    First, measuring the cleat position from the heel of two
    completely different brands and types of shoes is an unreliable means of quantifying relative cleat position. Better to measure where the foot is in the shoe as outlined in “Why Bikefitters Don’t Chew Their Nails” and “Power to the Pedal”

    However, everything you have said suggests that the basic picture you are describing is correct; that your road cleats are further forward relative to foot in shoe than your mtb cleats. What to do?
    Keos have poor rearward adjustment ability, noticeably less, than the old Look Deltas. Spd SL’s are better and Time better again in this regard but you won’t get 8mm out of either of them (bearing in mind that your measuring method is flawed and the true difference may be more or less than 8mm).
    I would suggest that you accurately measure the cleat position relative to foot in shoe for each pair of shoes. If the difference is 5mm or less; then Time’s will solve the problem. If more than that, sorry, Speedplay with extender plates is the way to go.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Duane,
    No pic came through.

    • http://profiles.google.com/thebikefitspecialist duane dickey
      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

        G’day Duane,
        Please be more specific.

        • http://profiles.google.com/thebikefitspecialist duane dickey

          The picture about half way down of Daniel Oss’ extender plates.

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            Duane,
            Half way down is a long article on a bike shop. You’re a better
            man than me. I can’t find it. If it’s important, do a cut and paste.

          • http://profiles.google.com/thebikefitspecialist duane dickey

            Try this link to my photobucket.

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            Duane,
            I don’t know whether this your idea of a cryptic joke that I don’t get, but there is no link. Again. If have something constructive to say or show, please say it or show it.
            But don’t bother posting cryptic comments that just waste my and others time.

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            Okay Duane,
            I’ve got the pic now. It shows a pair of shoes with Speedplay extender plates. What is your question?

  • Marko

    Hi Steve,

    Is it possible to have difference between 2 1st MTP joints by 6-7mm ?
    I found out that on my right feet my 1st MTP joint is 6-7mm closer to the heel than the left foot, so cleat is also 6-7mm more back then the left.I tripple check it but always get the same difference between 6-7mm :(

    Thanks!

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Marko,
      Yes it is. I wouldn’t say that it is common but it’s
      certainly not rare. I’ve seen up to 12mm difference on feet that only had a few mm difference in length. I’ve also seen instances of up to 7mm difference in foot length, with no difference in MTP joint placement. That is, same size feet but much longer toes on one foot.

      Without making you paranoid, when their are substantial proportional differences like yours, there is often a leg length difference or a long term pelvic tilt associated with it. So worth checking that out too.

      Place the cleats as per the guidelines given in the Power To The Pedal – Cleat Position post for each foot separately. Be aware though, that doing so will cause slightly more extension of the leg with the cleat further back on the shoe, so you may need a shim of 2 – 3mm even with no difference in leg length. You may even need to change to Speedplay with the extender baseplate just to get both cleats in the same place relative to foot in shoe.

      I’ve heard the argument before that “No, place the cleats on the same place on the shoe when there is a large difference in foot proportions; not the same place relative to foot in shoe”. Bunkum. The Velotron tells me and others that placing the cleat in the same place *relative to foot in shoe *in cases like yours (which means a different place on the sole of the shoe for
      each foot) improves symmetry in pedaling force application.

      Another example of this came my way last week. I was talking to Jerry
      Gerlich and he’d had a client with a 10mm difference in 1st MTP joint
      placement, and because the rider had the same cleat position on the sole of
      each shoe, this meant a 10mm difference relative to foot in shoe. His
      Velotron SpinScan wasn’t great and when Jerry gave him the same cleat
      placement relative to foot in shoe (meaning different placement on the sole
      of the shoe), the SpinScan numbers improved dramatically.

      • Alexblp06

        Hi Steve,

        Just wanted to say how informative your blog is and and a
        doft of ones cap at your willingness to help mere cycling mortals over the tinternet!

        My question is, looking at your recommendations formcleat placement (method 2), I cannot seem to get the centre line of the spd sl cleats 13mm behind the joint space of the 1st met.

        I wear a 47 Lake shoe, and the closest I can get is 1st met approx 18mm ahead.

        Am I losing the plot, have I got abnormally large toes or do Lake shoes drill their cleat holes in odd places?

        Thanks for your time!

        • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

          G’day Alex,
          Sorry Alex,
          your meaning isn’t clear. Does that mean that the
          cleats need to go back 31mm on the sole of the shoe OR need to move 5mm further forward to obtain Method 2 position.

          Regards,
          Steve

          STEVE HOGG
          COMFORT+EFFICIENCY=PERFORMANCE
          for more, see http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com

          *I apologise if my reply is tardy. We experience periodic email overload and the only thing I can promise is to wade through, mail by mail.*

          • Alex

            Hi Steve. The cleats need to come 5mm forward to achieve method two position.

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            Thanks for the clarification. If it can’t happen there are three options and which one you choose will depend on what your priorities are with your cycling.
            1. If you ride a lot of crits or have a good sprint, I would change your shoes to ones that don’t have cleat mounting holes as rearward as your Lakes.
            2. Will give the same result as 1. Change to Speedplay and use the extender baseplates part no. 13330. They are best known for offering up to 14mm more rearward offset than the standard baseplate. What is less well known is that they allow 5mm of extra forward adjustment too. That should just get you out of trouble.
            3. Leave the cleat position as is. There will be no disadvantages for riding at high or low intensity; in fact, probably a tiny improvement, but at the cost of a small lessening of your ability to jump really hard in the acceleration phase of a sprint.

            As to the cleat hole mounting position of Lakes; yes, further back than on many brands but not as far back as Giro shoes.

          • Alex

            Thanks for your reply and all your help Steve. Can you clarify for me that whatever measurement for method 1 is say 14mm in front of the pedal spindle centre line, and method 2 is say 14mm in front of the pedal spindle. If I have read your blog correctly, why is one method taken from the spindle centre line and the other is in front of the pedal axle?

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            G’day Alex,
            Probably a slip up on my part. All are measured in relation
            to the pedal axle centre.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Doug,
    I don’t see a lot of people using shoes with a direct
    Speedplay 4 bolt connection. The shoes that I have reasonable familiarity with that offer a direct connection without baseplate are the Lake models that offer a Speedplay specific sole. I’ve yet to have a problem with achieving a Method 1 or Method 2 cleat position with Lake 4 bolt shoes as there is a lot of cleat adjustment potential. I’ve been a bit of a Lake fan for a few years and am becoming more of one.

    You’re right about a 4 bolt shoe being the better option for Speedplay with a couple of provisos.

    1. That the rider can indeed achieve their desired for and aft position because the Speedplay part no. 13330 extender baseplate cannot be used with a direct 4 hole mount.

    2. That the rider doesn’t need a substantial shim (say more than 8mm) under one foot. If this is required, then long mounting screws are going through a lot of empty space to be engaged by a few mm of thread. If a large shim is required, a 3 hole shoe with the Leg Length Compensators that we have available is a better option for greater thread engagement and security. For those that need them, a 3 hole shoe is necessary.

    • Doug from Florida

      Hello Steve,

      To close the loop on this one, I ended up purchasing a pair of Lake CX236 4 hole Speedplay configuration shoes. I was able to successfully replicate the cleat position I attained on my previous 3 hole shoes with the 13330 extender plate. While I’ve only put ~200 miles on the new Lakes, do date they feel great and I’m quite pleased. Thanks as always for advice!

      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

        I’m glad that it all worked out Doug and you’re welcome.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Andrew,
    I don’t understand your statement. When the angle of the
    foot changes, (we agree on that) the relationship between the foot and pedal axle changes (which we apparently don’t agree on).

    I thought my meaning was clear but will attempt to explain in a way that makes sense to you. By convention, cleat position relative foot in shoe is measured with crank arm forward and horizontal and foot level. As we can’t see the foot in shoe, the closest approximation to a level foot is to level the shoe between where sole joins upper at mid heel and where sole joins upper underneath the middle of the thickened section of the sole where the cleat attaches. BOFOPA means that at the conventional point in the stroke where cleat position is measured, the centre of the ball of the foot (centre of 1st MTP joint) is VERTICALLY above the pedal axle centre. Agreed?

    As the angle of the foot changes throughout the pedal stroke and under varying loads, the vertical relationship of the 1st MTP joint to the pedal axle also changes. It is further back from the VERTICAL relationship of BOFOPA when the heel is dropped and further forward than the same VERTICAL relationship when the toe is pointed.

    Let me know if this explanation doesn’t satisfy.

  • James

    Steve,

    Was wondering what your opinion was on Bont cycling shoes? Do they have a more rearward drilling of the cleat screw holes or more forward compared to other manufactures? Also as a bike fitter are you a fan of the heat moldable shoe or do you think its a gimmick. Regards. James

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day James,
      If you can get a pair that fit, and if they hold up,
      they’re fine. Super solid feel under foot but build quality needs work. Cleat positioning is a bit further forward than I’d like but better than some and worse than others. Currently, the best in terms of rearward cleat adjustment potential are Giro and Lake and the worst are Fizik and Mavic. Yes, a fan of the idea of heat moldable shoes but carbon that can be heat molded means high resin content which in turn equals poor quality carbon fibre. So a bit of a tradeoff between customisability (if there is such a word) and quality.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Alex,
    It’s good to hear that you’re getting somewhere positive. Re
    the heel out movement on the right side down stroke. It may be cleat position and if so, easy to check. Go to points 5 and 6 in italics at the bottom of this post http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/04/power-to-the-pedal-cleat-position/ and
    work your way through that method. I caution; do it on both sides, not just the problematic right. I’ve seen many cases where a problem on one side was actually caused by compensating for a poor cleat angle on the other side.
    After doing that, if you find that the angle of the cleats is fine, then the most likely cause is that you are not sitting completely squarely on the seat or that the seat is too high.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Marko,
    Assuming your measurements are reasonably accurate, you are
    doing something right. Relax, try it out and refine if necessary.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Greg,
    Re 1; Often.
    Your comments about your left foot having a lower arch and feeling unstable appear to confirm that on the surface. But, a tendency to drop the right hip is so widespread that the instability on the pedal may at least in part, have something to do with that possibility as well. A dropping right hip causes over extension of the left leg. If the degree of overextension is only mild, often that is felt as the left foot moving around on the pedal.
    I would suggest adding arch support of Level 2 and reassessing over a week or so of riding.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Andrew,
    I can visualise what you are saying without problem. It is just that I don’t agree. To best illustrate what I am talking about, read the post “Why Bikefitters Don’t Chew Their Nails” and use that method to find the joint space of the 1st MTP joint. Carefully mark the VERTICAL CENTRE of your first MTP joint. Use the method suggested in the post to transfer that mark to the outside of the shoe as a dot.Now take your shoe off and place the shoe in the pedal with the cleat positioned so that the mark you have made on your shoe is vertically above the centre of the pedal axle with shoe levelled from where sole joins upper at mid heel and where sole joins upper over the pedal axle.. Depending on shoe sole thickness, pedal type and cleat placement fore and aft on the shoe, that mark will be anywhere from 30 – 45 mm above the centre of the pedal axle. Raise or lower the the heel of the shoe appreciably and that mark will move quite a way forward or aft of the pedal axle.
    If you complete that and we still disagree, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do the same thing multiple times daily with clients and can assure you that there can be a substantial difference in relationship between mark on shoe, determined as described above ,nd centre of pedal axle depending on how much the heel is dropped or raised.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    Andrew to be clear, what I am saying is that a mark on the shoe indicating the vertical centre of the 1st MTP joint, with that mark typically being 30 – 45 mm above the centre of the pedal axle will vary its vertical relationship with the pedal axle markedly depending on angle of the long axis of the foot relative to horizontal.
    When you say “Why is this not true of any other part of the foot?
    I would say that it is and have never suggested otherwise.

  • John Pemberton

    Hi Steve,

    I find your information great!!!
    If this has been asked previously I do apologise.
    The cleats on my shoes also can be moved left and right as well as forward and backwards. Is there a process to set left and right?

    Best Regards

    John

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day John,
      thanks for the positive comments. Re lateral adjustment of
      the cleats; ideally, the centre of the knee should descend vertically over the centre of the midfoot. There are exceptions but that alignment will keep most happy and pain free.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Andrew,
    Go through the exercise I outlined in my last reply and
    you will see what I’m saying first hand.

  • Bsiers1221

    Steve,

    You and your blog are amazing..state of the art. You truly
    are one of a kind and I can tell that you love what you do…bravo.

    I have a question about cleat rotation. I set my cleats up according to method 2 and I fixed cleats…It is odd but I actually get knee pain when I used cleats with rotational float. However, I recently started to get a little soreness and cramp a little in the inner groin/hamstring. I was wondering if this could be caused from the type of rotation I have. I am currently pretty neutral in my cleat rotation..would inner groin pain be caused from the leg wanting to be more toe in or toe out?

    Billy

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      I won’t pass on your observations to my wife Billy. She’d die laughing. Yes, I like my job, though sometimes I would like a little less of it.

      Re your observation about fixed cleats. The reason you get knee pain with cleats with rotational movement is poor hip / lower back function OR, much more likely, lack of foot correction. I would encourage you to investigate both. When the foot is locked into position in an attempt to solve alignment or lack of foot correction issues, there is always a risk involved.

      To answer your question though, you may need to move your cleats in either direction depending on how you are attempting to compensate. What I suggest is that you fit some freeplay cleats, use the method outlined in the post above to determine cleat angle and when done, draw an outline around the cleats on the sole of your shoe. Then replace the freeplay cleats with your fixed ones being careful to place them within that outline.

      Longer term, work through the foot corrections posts using freeplay cleats.

      • Bsiers1221

        Please don’t tell you wife Steve! Wouldn’t want to get ya in trouble. I will try out your advice with freeplay cleats and find a position with fixed to finish the season and then for longer term I will work through the foot corrections and try to use free floating cleat for the start of next season when I can ride low intensity to adapt.

        Another question about cleat rotation though. Would more of a heel in position help in “opening” up the hips? When I have slight heel in I feel more able to rotate the hips better. Could this be because I naturally have externally rotated hips?

        Billy

        Best of luck with finding an even keel between your love for your job and your love for your wife!

        • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

          G’day Billy,
          Yes, more riders have mild external hip rotation when
          pedalling than otherwise. And yes, finding a balance between work and the rest of my life is a work in progress.

  • Jkarrasch

    Steve, I have both my cleats positioned so center of first MTP is 12 mm ahead of pedal axle w/ size 45 shoes with the shoes pointing straight ahead. I have a mild internal tibial torsion on both legs causing a slight toeing in of about 10 degrees when clipped in. With the shoes clipped in this 12mm obviously decreases to about 9mm or so when the shoes are rotated in 10 degrees.

    With this rotation the distance from “middle of foot” being third metatarsal head is the same but distance from first metatarsal is decreased as noted above. Would I want to leave this alone or move the cleats back so I get the 12mm from first met head with the inward rotation? Thanks much.

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Jkarrasch,
      Glad to see someone’s thinking. I’ve been waiting for
      this or similar question for sometime and had almost given up hope. Position your cleats so that you achieve the distance you want the 1st MTP joint in front of the pedal axle *at the angle your foot normally sits on the pedal under load.*

      • Jkarrasch

        Excellent, checked like you said and everything looks correct. Thanks. I have seen you post road shoes that allow the cleats furthest back numerous times…but what about SPD compatible MTB shoes? Also, have you come across any MTB shoes that have a wide toebox and narrow to normal heel? My feet are like flippers!

        • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

          G’day Jkarrasch,
          While I see a few mtb riders, I see far more road, tri
          and track riders and so don’t have an wide knowledge of what is out there in mtb shoes for narrow heeled, wide forefooted riders. Assuming good fitting shoes, the only mtb shoes that I’ve ever had problem getting a cleat bar far enough are some Cannondale shoes.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Andrew,
    You’re argument is at the hair splitting stage and I am left wondering whether you actually read the post.

    Initially you contended that the MTP joints don’t move relative to pedal axle when the heel is dropped, when I said that they do. Now you seem to be implying agreement on that point but are splitting hairs about what you THINK I wrote versus what I ACTUALLY wrote.

    To be as clear as I can be; the only reason I highlighted the 1st MTP joint is that is the common point of reference for relative cleat position and has been for the 40 years I’ve been interested in bikes and probably for a long time prior to then.

    And OF COURSE the main reason for moving the cleats rearward is to increase stability of the foot on pedal. Just as the third paragraph of the post makes ABUNDANTLY CLEAR.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Karsten,
    I get the impression you over think bike position
    related issues. If you have checked, rechecked, are happy with your calculations and happy with the feel while pedaling, stop second guessing yourself.

    Where the cleats will be on the sole of the shoe depends on how well your shoes fit and the shape and proportions of your feet. As an example, I have large feet with squarish forefoot and short toes. I never have a problem gaining Method 1 cleat position on just about any shoe. Sometimes in the past I have struggled to get my cleats far forward enough to achieve Method 1. At the other end of the scale, about 40% of my fit clients can’t achieve the cleat position we decide on (which may be Method 1 or 2) with the shoes and pedals they arrive with. If I was using Method 1 only, then the percentage who couldn’t achieve it would be much lower.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Stuart,
    Firstly, you need to know what the relative cleat position
    was on your old shoes so you know what you are trying to duplicate. I assume you still have your old shoes?

    Read the post Why Bikefitters Don’t Chew Their Nails and this post; Power to the Pedal. Once you have quantified the relative cleat position on your old shoes, those posts contain the info you need to duplicate that posiiton

    • Stuart MacRae

      Many thanks Steve. Yes, I still have the old shoes with cleats still attached. I’ll read through both posts as suggested. Cheers.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Craig,
    there is huge individual variation in how sensitive people
    are to foot separation distance (sorry, I refuse to call it ‘stance width’ because it has nothing to do with standing and I find the term confusing). Like you, I am one of the sensitive ones but that may be because I have stack of knee and lower limb injuries that I am keeping under control. Most people are not hypersensitive providing the centre of the knee descends over the centre of the midfoot.

    With many lightly built riders with internally rotated hips, their knees always descend inboard of their feet without problem and their is no possibility of moving their feet further in to get them under their knees.
    That you are so sensitive could be related to poor flexibility or past injuries leaving you in the situation that you function well only within a narrow envelope. That is certainly the situation in my case. I’m trying to keep a left knee happy that has no PCL or MCL and a right ankle happy that has no lateral or collerateral ligaments. Additionally my right foot doesn’t function the way it was designed to because of a dozen plus fractures all of which mean that I am very sensitive to small changes in position with foot separation distance being one of those things. I can function quite well on an mtb with my feet much further apart but the price of that is having a torso position that is relatively speaking, much higher than you would expect versus my low position on my road bike.

    Wedging numbers and arch support can influence what you feel but I don’t
    want to second guess Jerry because he has seen you in the flesh and I
    haven’t. In past correspondence you’ve suggested that you have a few issues
    and it may be, that like me, you currently function within narrow confines
    of which foot separation distance is one of them.

    Sooner or later I want to write a foot separation post and will get around
    to it.

  • Craig Macintyre

    Thanks Steve – yeah, I have many issues (though nothing like you) from foot to knee to back to neck. Jerry was the one who “discovered” this on me – while we made changes to saddle height and fore-aft, the biggest two changes made were a bit more wedge and a fairly significant change in foot separation that completely changed the way my feet sat on the pedals (from really duck footed to fairly straight).

    I look forward to that post.

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      One thing I forgot to mention Craig is that foot separation distance can affect wedging numbers. Most of the time the same degree of arch support and wedging is necessary for a given rider with the road and mtb shoes. However, on occasions I have seen significant changes in wedging necessary when moving the feet further apart as per moving from road to mtb. Not common but it happens.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Bill,
    Adding foot correction in form of wedges or arch support can
    affect the heel in / heel out angle of foot on pedal. This sometimes gives the illusion of increasing or decreasing foot separation distance, but foot separation distance won’t change unless the cleats are moved laterally in either direction, or unless the cranks or pedals are changed to ones that narrow or increase that distance.

    • Bill

      Steve,
      Awesome. Thanks you. One more question…1 Cleat Wedge = 1 ITS = 1 Cut Down Heel Wedge, correct? Thanks again.

      Cheers

      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

        G’day Bill,
        Correct……………..at least initially. If wedge numbers
        are ideal but wedge placement not ideal, the CNS initially recognises the change, and then over time ignores it. More on this coming. Also have now got purpose built heel wedges and will get them into the estore soon.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Jkarrasch,
    If you read this post http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/06/things-you-may-not-have-known-about-bike-position/ it
    covers this matter. Additionally, in the Comments at the end of the post there is an interchange between ‘Cam’ and me with contributions from others that will give you plenty of detail.

  • M@

    Hey Steve!

    Im a competitive triathlete who started to use the mid-foot cleats in January and loved it from my first ride. I raced every distance this year with from sprint to Ironman. One thing I have found, is that I when I feel good, then the ridding is great I can turn a heavy gear at a steady and smooth cadence. Whereas when I start to fatigue, I find myslef to struggle to get over top of my pedal stroke…A friend suggested I should have shorten my cranks when changed to the mid-foot…What do you think on that?

    I am 182cm tall and have been ridding 172.5mm cranks for several years now! Thanx in advance and for tones of helpfull info on your site =)

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Matt,
      I’m the same height as you and also use 172.5mm cranks with
      midfoot cleat position. My inseam is 864 which is average for height and I have a long lower leg and short femur which means that my knee rises high a the top of the stroke. So if anyone should run into the problem you do, it is me, and I don’t.

      My guess is that one or more of the following is the problem.

      1. Seat is too low

      2. Seat is too far forward. Are you running a steep seat angled TT / Tri frame?

      3. Bars are too low causing the upper thigh to foul the rib cage at the top of the stroke

      4. Tight hip flexors are tightening further by working too hard in a cramped position (seat forward / bars too low) and this is switching off your glutes and localising the pedalling load mainly to your quads. This will feel as though you are using a step machine, not a bicycle.

      Do any of those strike a chord?

      One other suggestion that may help is to get yourself a pair of Rotor Q
      rings and use them mounted in position 4. That really puts the icing on the
      cake for midfoot cleat position in terms of smoothing out the pedal stroke
      when the rider is tired.

      • M@

        Hey Steve M@ here! Thanx for your time =)
        Well I rode with a saddle to low for the first few months.
        And really felt the difference when I raised it some!

        I will definetly check #2 and #3.
        Recently switched from size 56 to 54.
        On a Cervelo P2.

        So I will play around with my set up and make it less agressive!
        And let you know how it goes in my next races!

        Thanks again!

        • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

          Okay Matt,
          I’ll wait to hear from you.

  • Jwoodard

    Steve,
    I have I guess what you would call a “modified” mid foot cleat position…I used the speedplay extender plate to drill holes in my shoes and then have my keo cleats all the way back. I was wondering, when you said for one of the cons of midfoot cleats that the saddle needs to drop from 25 to 40mm, is there another factor other than the reach down to the pedal is lengthened? Or is there something else that contributes for the need for a lower saddle position?

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      I assume this is still Matt that I’m talking to?
      If so, can you be more explicit about what “modified midfoot” means to you please?

      Are your cleats positioned so that the centre of the pedal axle is under the highest point of your arch or is it further forward than that?

      Are there other factors?
      Yes, the ones that I mentioned. Did any of those strike a chord with you?

      *
      *

      • Jwoodard

        Steve,
        This is not Matt, this is a completely different query…sorry. But my cleats are positioned with the pedals axle further forward than my arch. That’s what I meant by “modified midfoot” in that it is between method 2 and midfoot.

        • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

          Okay Jwoodward,
          My apologies. Your query followed closely on another
          and I thought it was the same person using a different email address.

          The seat needs to drop as far as it does with genuine midfoot cleat position because a) the cleat has moved back substantially which increases leg extension, hence a drop in seat height is necessary AND b) midfoot cleat position reduces ankle movement which again increases leg extension for most people. There is some individual variation in how people using midfoot are affected which is why I said 25 – 40mm.

          Additionally, midfoot needs more bend in the knee at the bottom of the pedal stroke than forefoot cleat position.

          • Jwoodard

            Okay Steve,
            Sorry for that, I didn’t even see the question above before asking this. I appreciate the quick feedback, and have enjoyed all of your recommendations greatly.

            Would that be classified as “midfoot” if I have holes drilled in my shoes (using the extender plates)..so new holes are 14mm back of original holes and then cleats are all the way back on keos (which allow for 12 mm longitudinal movement).. My arch is by no means over the pedal spindle, but it is definitely further back than method 2. Thanks again. J

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            G’day Jwoodward,
            No, not midfoot, just a lot of foot over the pedal.
            You would probably need to move the cleat back another 25 – 35mm to be true midfoot assuming average foot proportions and a size 44 shoe.

            Regards,
            Steve

            STEVE HOGG
            COMFORT+EFFICIENCY=PERFORMANCE
            for more, see http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com

            *I apologise if my reply is tardy. We experience periodic email overload and the only thing I can promise is to wade through, mail by mail.*

          • Jwoodard

            Ok,
            So I don’t need to go as low as midfoot because I will still have ankling. I will do the hill test because I think I went a little too low, thinking that I had true midfoot.

            Thanks

          • Alehrlichinc

            Would you consider cleats that were drilled (with the speedplay extender plate) so that keo cleats could be used and then positioned all the rearward (so 26mm back on a 46 shoe) to far back for a rider that does 85 percent crits?

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            G’day Alehrlichinc,
            It depends on whether you have a good sprint and
            want to use it. If you do, then ball of the foot 26mm ahead of the pedal axle is far from ideal for riding crits. Also, a lot of changes in pace might catch you out if the accelerations are severe. If you don’t have much of a sprint and your chance of winning is to break away and stay away, then you shouldn’t have a problem with that cleat position.

          • Alehrlichinc

            Hi Steve,
            I don’t have a terrible sprint, but I have never had the “snap” in sprinting. I would be more like Petacchi that goes from far out, but the majority of my success has been out of breaks or solo attacks. And I am usually first in the lead out, so if I am not in the break or up the road somewhere I am not mixing it up in the sprints much. I would be more like a Cancellara type rider. Would this cleat position be okay then?

            Thanks

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            G’day Alehlichinc,
            It depends on what you want to prioritise. If you
            want to improve your sprint, particularly your ability to jump really hard, then on a size 46 shoe I would suggest moving your cleat forward so that the ball of your foot is more like 12mm in front of the pedal axle.

            However, if you are happy with your all round performance don’t feel that you lack anything in your jump, leave as is.

          • Alehrlichinc

            OK. Is it possible to still be able to sprint well with a further back cleat? If so, and it merely comes down to having a better longer sustained effort vs a sprint, than I choose the former. But if I can achieve the same sustained effort AND have a better sprint, wouldn’t it be a simple answer to choose a cleat position further forward? What are your thoughts?

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            G’day Alehrlichinc,
            I don’t know you or how your ride a bike or what
            you are good at and not so good at. So I can only generalise.

            Here’s my thinking. Your race mainly crits. Crits have a lot of changes in pace where there is an off the seat effort necessary to stay on the wheel or close back up. The chances are that you will do better at that type of riding with a cleat position that allows the centre of the ball of your foot to be 12mm in front of the pedal axle (measured as explained in the post) than you will with 26mm in front.
            26mm in front would likely be better for you if your style was an early, long breakaway but in the relatively short duration of a crit, the difference in ability to sustain power shouldn’t be huge while the difference in ability to jump really hard out of the seat is likely to be.
            Of course, as a generalisation, in your case it is possible that I am wrong. The only way you will know whether what I’m saying applies to you is to give it a try for several weeks with appropriate changes to seat height and possibly, setback. (Repeat the balance test and hill test once you’ve moved your cleats)

            What ever you choose to do after you have been through that exercise will be right for you and what you do on a bike.

          • Alehrlichinc

            Many thanks. I will test it out.

          • Alehrlichinc

            Steve,
            First ride felt completely awkward after switching from 26mm BOFOPA to 12mm BOFOPA (and I did make all other proper changes to position). I suppose it will take some getting used to the pedaling gait of a more forefoot cleat position, but I was just wondering how long something like this usually takes? Please let me know. Thanks.

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            3 weeks of riding at low to moderate intensity, 4+ times weekly only is about right. From the 4th week on, ride as hard as you like. If it still feels odd, then the change is a negative one, at least in your case.

          • Jwoodard

            Sorry one last question Steve, can the saddle height hill test still be used verbatim with midfoot cleat position?
            Thanks

          • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

            Yes, without problem for any cleat position.

            Regards,
            Steve

            STEVE HOGG
            COMFORT+EFFICIENCY=PERFORMANCE
            for more, see http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com

            *I apologise if my reply is tardy. We experience periodic email overload and the only thing I can promise is to wade through, mail by mail.*

  • Mchae

    This might be an odd question, but would there be any changes in stability and bike handling as the cleat is moved back? I has moved my cleats further back than recommended in method 1 for a time and found that my descending and handling in tight situations was worse. I felt as if I almost had to think about handling the bike more.

    After going back to the method 1 placement, I immediately felt as if by bike handling went back to normal. Would this be due to poor core strength or some other muscular issue? I did lower my seat and bars accordingly.

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Mchae,
      Great question. There is individual variation. I’ve heard
      people say what you have just said as well as others saying the opposite. I suspect but don’t know that the variable is how much time is spent off the seat with calves loaded in tight situations as you mention.

      That is the only thing that comes to mind. If you need your calves loaded to feel more in control then it will be a benefit to have a more forward cleat position. If you needed your calves less loaded, the converse will be the case.

      Midfoot is different again because the substantial seat height drop it requires lowers the centre of gravity of bike and rider and means that descending is more secure for most.

      • Mchae

        Thank you. I had not thought about the calves in this case. I was thinking that it might have more to do with ankle movement and making small shifts in weight with my feet.

        I have to say that I am fascinated by this and many of the topics you have written about. Certainly more than meets the eye.

        • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

          G’day Mchae,
          There is no guarantee that I am right. It is merely an
          observation that I’ve heard what you’ve said before as well as the opposite. It is speculation on my part as to why. If I ever find out definitely, I’ll pass it on.

  • Karstenwalker

    I was wondering if you think a specific cleat position might be causing an odd knot in just one of my calves? I switched from Sidis to Specialized and setup my cleats according to method one, but I’ve developed a pain on the lower part of my right calve. It doesn’t hurt enough to influence power output, but it is annoying and excessively sore post ride. My seat height did not change and I was wondering if you think that this might be a result of cleat placement or saddle height? I notice that if I flex my toes downward (when I’m not on the bike) that it tends to hurt more.

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Karsten,
      This sounds like the right calf is working harder or
      straining more. I would be rechecking the cleat position. If that checks out okay, I would drop your seat a few mm and reassess. Some of the latest Specialized shoes have very thin soles and you may not have allowed the effect of that on seat height when you changed shoes.

      • Karstenwalker

        I re-checked and my cleats were positioned so that the ball was actually slightly behind the axle and they were moved 13mm back to get the ball 1 cm behind. It turns out that the shoe was not properly leveled when they were installed. The next step would be to lower the seat and/or move it forward correct? Any guidelines on amounts?

        • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

          G’day Karsten,
          There are no rules of thumb that work. Go out on your
          bike and repeat the seat height up hill test. That will sort your seat height out and the in the overwhelming majority of cases, the seat height will have to be lowered. Once you’ve got a seat height that you are happy with, repeat the balance test to determine seat setback.

          By repeating both of those procedures you will end up with a seat height and seat setback that works for you which is better than any rule of thumb recommendation that I can offer.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    Correct. I’ll have a look at it and probably reword.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Michael,
    I just had a look at what I wrote. It seems fairly clear
    cut. The first two paragraphs of *Cleat Rotational Angle *deal with this issue with the lower rotational movement range of freeplay cleats and paragraph 3 deals with the zero freeplay cleats.

    *”*

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    No Michael,
    the sentence is as I meant it. Yellow tipped Spd SL cleats
    have 4 or 4.5 degrees of float, I can’t remember. Grey Keo cleats have a similar amount. The thrust of what I’m saying is that there are people out there who need a heel in / heel out angle of the pedal that cannot be achieved with yellow tipped Spd SL or grey Keo cleats even with the cleat angled to the maximum. That is why I’ve contrasted them with the Keo red cleat which has twice the rotational movement.

    When I said there was “no extra freeplay option” my meaning was as compared to the red Keo cleat.

    That you moved from red tipped zero freeplay Spd SL cleats to the yellow tipped versions without problems means that you didn’t have a problem to start with.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Tedtoo,
    Thanks for taking the time to give the detail of your
    experience. I’ve been experimenting with cleat position further back than BOFOPA for nearly 30 years. I have been told similar stories to yours probably hundreds of times. Sometimes accompanied by power / time graphs. I still don’t get the mindless attachment to BOFOPA, but I think things are slowly changing in mainstream bikeland a bit.

    Very happy for you that you got a result. Where are your cleats now in relation to ball of foot?

    Re your query on seat height. I don’t know what your starting cleat position was but if it was BOFOPA or close to it, I often find riders with that cleat position push their seats too far back in an effort to get that feeling of strong leverage that they struggle with because of poor cleat position. So, once they gain a decent cleat position, those people need to move their seat forward. This isn’t a universal ‘rule’ but is common.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Tedtoo,
    We’re probably similar vintage or I may be older again.
    An interesting history. It sounds to me like you should play around with some foot correction. I would start with quality arch support. You may have taken a few years to attain a good cleat position but you got there. Many never do.

  • Jurgenmaas

    Hi Steve,

    Have you had any experience fitting riders with Morton’s Neuroma with either Method 1 or 2? I’m on the verge of drilling my old cycling shoes to accommodate Method 3 as outlined on Friel’s blog, but a part of me thinks investing in some Lakes and Speedplays (with extender plates) is the better way to proceed.

    (I’m currently wearing a size too long Shimano shoes to accommodate my wide feet with SPD-SL pedals, and even with everything as far back as is possible the burning in the balls of my feet becomes a huge limiter after an hour.)

    Most of my races are crits, and not losing any of my already subpar sprint would be preferable… although whatever eliminates the pain is best!

    Thanks.

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Jurgen,
      What works well for Morton’s Neuroma is to use ESoles
      Supportive insoles as suggested in the Foot Correction Post on Arch Support but instead of using one of the standard sizes of metatarsal lifts, use both. Use gaffer tape to tape the thinner one over the top of the thicker one.

      To date, that has worked fine with some severe Morton’s Neuroma cases. The only way to find out is to try.

  • Jurgenmaas

    Hi Steve,

    Thanks for the prompt response!

    I’ll reread that post.

    At this point I’m a little skeptical footbeds alone are the solution, hence the reason I’m considering drilling my current shoes and/or buying new shoes and new pedals.

    I had been using Specialized BG footbed with metatarsal pads taped to the bottoms for a couple of months, and they only helped push back the pain from about 45mins into the ride to an hour.

    More recently I was fitted for custom orthotics with built-in metatarsal buttons, and using them with mixed results. (Mixed=lame.) I’m going back to see my pediatrist to see if/how they can be improved… $400 is a lot to spend for so little results!

    Any other thoughts?

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Jurgen,
      My experience to date with Morton’s Neuromas is that
      almost always they need more arch support than is normally given in a bike shoe by a podiatrist and almost always they need a higher metatarsal raise than is commonly realised in a bike shoe.

      The Specialized insoles don’t offer enough arch support for anyone with other than a low arch and while I applaud their inclusion of metatarsal raises, it isn’t enough for Morton’s Neuroma. That even the Specialized insole pushed back the onset of pain is a positive. My feeling is that you need more of the same. More arch support, more metatarsophalangeal joint raising and separating.

      And yes, revisit the podiatrist to find out what you got for your money.

      • Jurgenmaas

        Hi Steve (again!),

        Thank you for arming me with some good info to take to the podiatrist.

        No particular thoughts about pedal-cleat position with my condition?

        Thanks (again!)

        • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

          G’day Jurgen,
          It isn’t possible to say without finding out yourself.
          Many people can ride with a Morton’s Neuroma with Method 1 or Method 2 cleat position but I come across a small minority who can’t. For that small number, midfoot cleat position is best.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Karsten,
    I kick myself for not suggesting that you revisit your cleat position. I took your word that you had done it correctly. That doesn’t excuse the people you have seen though. There is a strain of thinking that amongst some bike fitters that goes like this “Published studies show that cleat position has no effect on power output which I have extrapolated to mean that cleat position doesn’t matter”. I vehemently disagree with that for the reasons you have found out the hard way through personal experience

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Karsten,
    Yours is an interesting story. I Know you said that you
    had your cleat position set well but I kick myself for not asking you to check it again. Re your comments at the end. I see a lot of fit customers who have been fitted previously elsewhere and mention that the fitter didn’t look at cleat position. This is something I don’t understand. If cleat position and foot correction are ideal, the rest is easy.

    • Mvergona

      Steve,
      When you say “if the cleat position and foot correction are ideal”….in terms of cleat position are you more speaking of fore/aft? Or the combination of fore/aft and rotational factors? Because if you have 15 degrees of float come down to merely fore/aft (which shouldn’t be too hard, based on your recommendation)..that is with ideal foot correction….

      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

        G’day Mvergona,
        I’m talking about all aspects of cleat position, not
        just fore and aft. If a rider has their cleat at an angle that doesn’t allow their foot to be at the angle it wants to be, they will compensate, often in ways that compromise stability. If a rider has 15 degrees of rotational movement in their cleats, then I would attempt to gain a cleat angle that placed their foot in the middle of that range with equal potential movement to either side. This is being pedantic as providing there is noticeable potential for movement to either side there will be no problem. But as someone who charges to fit people I feel I need to be pedantic.

    • Karstenwalker

      One last question. I saw you tell someone above that they may need a LLD shim if their first metatarsals are not in the same place on each foot. I measured my feet putting my heel against a flat surface and then had someone measure to the same space that I use to mark my cleat position on my shoe. My right metatarsal joint is 8mm further back than my left so I moved my cleats to compensate. Which foot should I put a shim on if I were to do so?

      • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

        G’day Karsten,
        Okay, so you have one foot that is smaller with longer
        toes and the other that is longer with shorter toes for similar total length. The foot with the more rearward MTP joint heads, that is the foot with the longer toes will have the cleats positioned further back on the shoe to be in the same place relative to MTP joints in shoe. That is the foot to shim. Moving the cleat 8mm further back on the shoe as you have done will cause greater extension of the leg on that side without a shim. I would suggest a 3 or 4mm shim as being ideal based on the info you have given me.

        Simply, when each leg feels the same, the shim height is correct.

  • Frank B Dimarco

    Any pictures of how to measure the distance of BOFOPA when the shoe is leveled and in the pedal?

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      I’ll put it on my “To Do” list Frank.

  • Matthew

    Steve,

    Would I be right in sayin if you move cleatto a more of a back position on the shoe u may need to lower the seat height?

    Matthew

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      G’day Matthew,
      Usually, yes.

      Regards,
      Steve

      STEVE HOGG
      COMFORT+EFFICIENCY=PERFORMANCE
      for more, see http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com

      *I apologise if my reply is tardy. We experience periodic email overload and the only thing I can promise is to wade through, mail by mail.*

  • Karstenwalker

    Do you ever see a rider alter their average cadence with cleat position changes? I’m not referencing changes in acceleration, but changes in average cadence across various ranges.

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      Yes Karsten, I do. There are people who have such a poor position that there only option is to slog away at low cadence in a big gear and others who can only pedal ridiculously fast in a small gear. When either of these groups has their position sorted out, then tend to gravitate towards normal cadences / gear choices relative to speed.

  • Steven Ward999

    I have a different thought experiment. In weight lifting, when doing squats, does rising up on the balls of the feet allow you to lift more weight? No. Second thought experiment: When riding a mountain bike without cleats, where do you stand on the pedal? I always stand with the pedal under my arch.

    • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

      Friel got the idea from Gotz Heine as did I and Gotz has kept him up to date on research since. And Eric, your right; asymmetries can worsen with midfoot because ankle movement reduces and many people use more ankle movement on one side than the other when pedalling as an automatic compensatory mechanism for LLD’s, inability to sit square on the seat and so on.

      I’ve got more injuries than most and had to take a methodical step by step process at tackling issues I was vaguely aware of that a midfoot cleat position highlighted to me. I’ve enjoyed the process and am a mid foot convert for life.

      For others, I’m happy for them to make their own decisions and accept their choice either way.

  • http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com Steve Hogg

    G’day Chris,
    There is no clear or exact relationship because so much depends on how the change in cleat position affects the technique of the rider. If you have any doubt in your mind, redo the balance test and seat height test.
    As an aside, moving the cleats forward 4mm as you have done will generally (not universally) mean that seat height has to rise a touch.
    In your case, I don’t know. Redo the tests and find out.