(Foot Correction series: Part 1 – Arch Support and Part 2 – Wedging)
A shim is a means to lengthen a functionally or measurably short leg while cycling. A shim stack may be needed as a short term, medium term or permanent fixture. Above are 5 varieties of shims. From left to right on top row they are:
1. Time / Campagnolo / Keywin compatible
2. Shimano SPD-SL / Look Delta compatible
3. Look Keo compatible
And, on the bottom row from left to right:
4. SPD mtb 2 bolt and clones compatible
5. Speedplay compatible
We manufacture each shim type in 2mm and 3mm and thicknesses so as to allow a shim stack of any height from 2mm upwards in single mm increments. For instance, below is a pic of a 7mm shim stack underneath a Look Keo cleat. The shim stack comprises 1 x 3mm shim and 2 x 2mm shims.
Let me start by defining terms.
A Measurable Leg Length Difference (MLLD) occurs when there is a measurable difference in the length of one or more bones in one leg relative to the other. This is commonly determined by observation and external measurement, though this method, even when competently performed, still has an error factor of plus / minus 5mm. Better still, because it is definitive, is an X-ray, scan or MRI which will give certainty as to any difference in leg length providing it is taken properly.
Explanatory Note:
Many X-rays or scans for leg length are not definitive in terms of accurately determining LLD unless taken with knees locked out and the subject standing as tall as they can. An X-ray is a 2 dimensional image and as something like 96% of people display a lateral pelvic tilt (my fitting clients over some years) which causes them to stand with one knee more locked than the other in normal standing posture, this means that the leg with the greater bend at the knee when the image is taken is ‘effectively’ shorter in a 2 dimensional sense, than it is with leg extended, leading to inaccuracy. The X-ray is accurate as long as both legs are in the same plane. The best protocol I’ve seen for imaging to determine relative leg length was given to me by Bernard Pearn-Rowe. Bernard, apart from being a knowledgeable bloke and Professor of Medicine, is a bike nut like the rest of us. I’ve taken the liberty of copying it here:
“The accurate measurement of leg length is amazingly difficult. It can’t be done with a tape measure, and measurement of leg length on X-ray is much better. But even this is complicated. The measurement must be of functional leg length. If a patient simply stands barefoot and gets X-rays taken, the eversion and foot posture that will almost certainly exist (as well as the impact of other postural issues) will distort the result and give a non-functional measurement. Ideally, the rider should be X-rayed when standing and wearing properly adjusted riding shoes (including cleat wedges where appropriate) and the measurement taken from the washers around the screws locking the cleats to the shoe, to the top of the ball and socket hip joint.”
A Functional Leg Length Difference (FLLD) occurs when there are functional factors that effectively lessen the ability of one leg to reach as far towards the bottom of the pedal stroke as the other leg. Some examples are:
a) A markedly tighter, hip, lower back, hamstrings or any combination of, on one side than the other
b) An unsupported arch that drops noticeably more on one foot than the other
c) Compromised ability to control a major joint involved in pedaling on one side. Usually because of excessive laxity resulting from a serious injury.
d) A functional pelvic asymmetry; i.e. an inability to sit squarely on the seat, which in turn can have a variety of functional and neurological causes.
e) Other functional issues that impact on the ability to extend the leg. Perthes disease being one example. Perthes disease causes malformation in the shape of the femoral head and acetabulum (ball and socket of hip joint), and I’ve seen several instances where one side was much more affected than the other. Major knee injuries, a restricted range of motion in one ankle or surgically fused ankles are other examples. There are others too.
What matters when fitting a rider to a bike is functional symmetry of movement. The client in front of you wants a result today. They may well be open to the idea of having X-rays taken or of consulting a structural health professional for a course of treatment that allows them to reduce or eliminate a functional difference in leg length; but right here, right now, they want a result that allows them to keep riding their bike for the physiological and psychological benefits they derive from it. This is where shimming enters the picture.Ideally, if a rider is sitting as squarely as possible, and all of the factors that present challenges to on bike pelvic symmetry have been addressed to the greatest degree possible, then any remaining difference in pedaling fluency between legs needs to be addressed with a shim. What percentage of riders need a shim?
The average of my clients over quite a few years is around 70%. I probably see a skewed sample of humanity as most people who seek our services have an issue that shimming may play a part in resolving. In 20 odd years of bike fitting, I am still looking for my first symmetrical client so it comes as no surprise to me that something over 2/3 of riders need a shim. Sometimes the shim may be as little as 2mm, which is why we make them. So, how do you determine whether you need one?
Firstly, start by reading and applying the info in FOOT CORRECTION Part 1 and Part 2.
Next, ask yourself whether one leg feels stronger or more fluent than the other?
If the answer is yes, don’t automatically assume that it is the less fluent leg that is the problem. You may be canting your pelvis toward the functionally shorter leg causing the functionally longer one to overextend. Then again you may not. If you perceive a noticeable difference in the fluency and drive of each leg, as a first step, mount your bike on and indoor trainer, warm up and pedal under reasonable load. Now drop your seat 5mm and reassess. Most riders sit too high (see this link for more about this and read the postcript about indoor trainer choice) and as a result, most will autonomically pick a side to favour and a side to sacrifice because of this challenge to their pelvic stability. The favoured side is the side that the rider cants their pelvis toward (most often the right side but not exclusively). Did dropping the seat improve the equality of perceived effort of the legs? That question has only 3 answers: Yes, No or Maybe. If YES, do you feel that both legs are functionally the same or very similar while you pedal, in terms of smoothness of stroke, equality of weight bearing on each sit bone and power production?
If the answer is still yes; then increase the resistance on your trainer to the point where you can still maintain pedaling technique but are working at the kind of intensity that you can only sustain for a couple of minutes. Then ask yourself again if both legs feel much the same. If the answer is still yes, then you don’t need a shim.
If the answer is no, read on. If NO, drop your seat further in 3mm increments. There will come a seat height where you either feel that both legs feel much the same, in which case you don’t need a shim; OR that one leg is feeling good but the other leg feels like it is under extending and cramped. The leg that now feels good may or may not be the one that originally felt more fluent depending on what your pelvis was doing by way of compensation. You need to experiment with a shim stack under the now less cramped leg at a variety of seat heights. The simplest way to do this is to fit a 3mm shim under the appropriate leg and raise the seat back up 3mm. Does the cramped leg feel better now?
If yes, great. If no, still a bit cramped, fit another 3mm shim and raise the seat another 3mm. Experience tells me that of the majority that need a shim, the greatest number need a shim stack of between 2 and 6mm. Any thing more than that suggests a marked MLLD or a substantial functional issue that needs addressing off the bike. It is worth getting an X ray taken by the method suggested by Bernard above.
Lastly, never assume that the less fluent leg is necessarily the problem side. In many cases it is not. When subject to any challenge to our position on a bike, we will all favour one side over the other (at a level below conscious thinking) and pay a price on the other side, large or small. So, if shimming the less fluent leg doesn’t feel so good after a trial, shim the other leg and make an assessment. See the table below. If MAYBE, do as per NO.
This is about as simple as I can make this matter but it is not a foolproof method because it relies on your perceptions of what you are feeling and doing. Many people have a false view of what they are doing in space on a bike. It’s a human thing. We lack the processing capacity to be really accurate in our awareness of the detail of what we are doing in space and so impose a mental veneer of symmetry on our actions. In most cases this does not accord with reality. For that reason, it is valuable for this exercise to have an observer present. The observer needs to be standing above and behind you to determine which hip (if any) is dropping and which hip (if any) is twisted further forward than the other. Additionally, they can provide an opinion on the relative velocity of the extension of each knee, which as you read in this post is the prime visual cue for seat height.
It is unlikely that your observer has had practice in what they are looking for so I will post some videos in an addendum to this post. Before going further, below is some info from my records about shimming frequency:
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SHIMMING FREQUENCY
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70.21%
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SHIMMING FREQUENCY LEFT FOOT
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23.40%
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SHIMMING FREQUENCY RIGHT FOOT
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45.81%
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This is a 3 year average of something over 2000 visits to us. In that time, the shim stack height necessary ranged from 2mm to 24mm, and as you can see, the majority were on the right side. Why?
Because as any physiotherapist, chiropractor or osteopath will attest, more people have a functionally shorter right leg than have a functionally shorter left leg. The ‘why’ of that is a large subject in itself.
Above all, don’t think (as many do) that using a shim somehow makes you less than perfect. You aren’t perfect anyway. While perfect symmetry between left and right sides is an ideal to be striven for if your ambition is to ride a bike as well as you can with the least chance of injury, it is not attainable beyond an individually variable level. What we need is ‘functional symmetry’. That means having both legs reaching through the bottom of the pedal stroke as evenly as possible, while sitting as squarely as possible on the seat.
One important thing to remember. As you increase the distance of the sole of the shoe from the pedal platform by adding a shim stack, you also increase the work load of the lower limb in stabilising foot on pedal. This effect is called, ‘rocking torque’. In simple terms, the increased distance that the shoe is set above the pedal platform acts as a lever, meaning that for a given degree of heel drop while pedaling, the foot rotates further back over the pedal than it would for the same cleat placement on the sole of a the same shoe without a shim stack. In effect, during hard efforts (like climbing hard or forcing a gear on the flat) there is ‘effectively’ less foot over the pedal than the cleat position on sole suggests.
This is the major drawback with shimming. So there are two choices. Firstly, ignore the need to shim. If you really need a shim, this is not a tenable choice. Secondly, use a shim stack but in such a way as to minimise the increased rocking torque.
The second option means that as the shim stack height increases, the cleat needs to be moved further back relative to foot in shoe to give the same amount of ‘effective’ foot over pedal under high load as would be the case without a shim. The problem is that moving the cleat further back increases leg extension (in most cases; some are atypical) which means that a larger shim is required, etc. In practice, the best compromise is that for shim stacks of 4mm or less, ignore rocking torque as it will be barely perceptible for most riders.
For best compromise, for every 5mm of shim stack (up to and including 10mm), move the cleat back 1mm further than you would without a shim stack. For example, if you have your cleat positioned so that the centre of the ball of the foot (see this post for how to determine this point) is 10mm in front of the pedal axle, then for a 5mm shim stack you will need 11mm and for a 10mm shim stack you will need 12mm.
For the small minority that need more than a 10mm shim stack, you will probably need to exceed the 1 in 5 ratio. You will find that really large shim stacks need to be stable first and foremost. The higher the shim stack, the more the cleat needs to be moved back on the shoe which partly negates the height of the shim stack because of the greater leg extension that usually occurs with a more rearward cleat position. Some where between these contending requirements is an acceptable compromise.
One last word and a declaration of interest. We manufacture shims. So do Specialized and Speedplay. Speedplay manufacture shims for their pedal systems only and there is no problem with them other than lack of choice of thicknesses, 3.5mm is it. Specialized manufacture 3mm shims to suit a variety of pedal systems. Specialized shims, like Specialized in shoe wedges, present a Material Challenge to the nervous system. (For more about Material Challenges click here and here.) If you are sceptical about my motivations in saying this, you are not the first. All I can say is this; Specialized frames, seats, shoes and insoles are fine in this regard, but their shims and in shoe wedges are not. I will demonstrate this on request and have done so, I would guess, several thousand times. Including to some clients who own stores that sell Specialized products and subscribe to the BG fit system. There is also a second problem with Specialized cleat shims. The shape closely follows the outline of the cleat they are intended to sit under. This is the same mistake that I made with our first generation of shims many years ago. If multiple Specialized shims are are used, pedal entry can range from easy to difficult to impossible depending on rider and pedal system.
That is it for shimming. There will be a Foot Correction part 4 – Pedal Spacing, in the near future.
Foot Correction series: Part 1 – Arch Support and Part 2 – Wedging
COMFORT + EFFICIENCY = PERFORMANCE
Note: Often, more specific answers to your questions can be found in the Comments below or in the eBooks section and FAQ page.
To learn more about bike fit products offered by Steve, click here.
Thank you for reading, return to the Blog page here or please comment below.
steve, i have a 1/2" shorter right femur and have tried various shim thicknesses (2mm-9mm),
never feeling square on the saddle. the best feeling seems to be a combo of shimming/offset cleat position. i am thinking of trying a 5mm shorter crank arm on the shorter leg side, what is your experience with this?
G'day Anonymous,
The likely source of your dissatisfaction is the asymmetries you've developed off the bike that you carry onto the bike. Having a 1/2" shorter right femur will be part of the picture of asymmetric function but not the entire story by any means. For instance; are both of your feet the same size?
Do you stretch regularly and sensibly? That means holding stretches for longish periods at low intensity (2 – 3 on a 1 – 10 scale with 10 being agony).
Do you compensate for your leg length difference in your walking shoes with a heel lift or similar?
You should because you spend far more time off the bike than on the bike but the issues you develop in your life off the bike (where they probably affect you less) then transfer onto the bike where you have less tolerance for asymmetry because you are locked into a more or less fixed relationship with a bike.
And so on ad infinitum. What I'm saying is that the source of your dissatisfaction is not likely to be your shorter femur per se, but because of a combination of factors of which your femur discrepancy may be one.
I'm not sure what you mean by "offset cleat position". Different position on each shoe? Different lateral offset?
???
I'm not a fan of different crank lengths unless it is the least worst of only bad options. You already have a shorter femur (primary lever) which means at some level, that leg is having to work harder in a muscular sense to produce the same amount of torque as the longer leg. If you reduce crank length, you further increase this disparity meaning that the shorter leg has to work even harder still. Before even considering differing crank lengths, I would be resolving all the other potential reasons for your inability to sit squarely.
I do stretch and where a lift in my shoe. I guess the best way to describe
How I feel on the bike is windswept. My left leg collapses inboard and my
Right leg seems to bow outboard. I only get saddle sores on the left side and
Have cracked a few saddle shells from my left sit bone. Right now I am running a wider right spindle otherwise my right foot hits the crank arm, my left foot
Has all kinds of room. My left foot rolls in and my right side supinates. I have gone up to 5 wedges on the left but that doesn't help, never any pain
Though on the left side. Right side I had IT band issues but stretching has
Resolved that.
G'day Anonymous,
I have cut and pasted your reply above and commented in your text in capitals.
I do stretch and where a lift in my shoe. GOOD I guess the best way to describe
How I feel on the bike is windswept. My left leg collapses inboard YOU ARE DROPPING AND / OR ROLLING YOUR LEFT HIP FORWARD AND DOWN. and my
Right leg seems to bow outboard DROPPING OR ROLLING THE LEFT HIP FORWARD AND DOWN IS WHAT IS CAUSING YOUR RIGHT LEG TO MOVE FURTHER FROM THE CENTRE LINE. I only get saddle sores on the left side and
Have cracked a few saddle shells from my left sit bone BECAUSE YOU ARE DROPPING THE LEFT HIP. Right now I am running a wider right spindle otherwise my right foot hits the crank arm, THE LEFT HIP DROP CAUSES YOU TO EXTERNALLY ROTATE THE RIGHT HIP AND HITTING THE CRANK IS THE RESULT AS THE HEEL TWISTS FURTHER INB0ARD. YOU ARE NOT SITTING SQUARELY ON THE SEAT. YOU ARE SITTING LEFT HIP FORWARD. my left foot
Has all kinds of room. My left foot rolls in and my right side supinates. I have gone up to 5 wedges on the left but that doesn't help, never any pain SURPRISING ABOUT THE LACK OF PAIN
Though on the left side. Right side I had IT band issues BECAUSE THE PLANE OF MOVEMENT OF THE RIGHT HIP IS CONSTANTLY CHALLENGED BY THE LEFT HIP DROP but stretching has
Resolved that. NO IT HASN'T, IT HAS JUST STOPPED IT FROM HURTING.
ADVICE? MAKE FUNCTIONAL STABILITY / CORE STRENGTH / GOOD POSTURE ETC YOUR RELIGION. EVERYTHING YOU HAVE TOLD ME SAYS THAT YOU ARE NOT SITTING SQUARELY ON THE SEAT AND THAT THIS IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEMS. THIS HAS MUCH LESS TO DO WITH YOUR SHORTER RIGHT FEMUR THAN IT DOES WITH COMPROMISED PELVIC SYMMETRY. THAT IS WHY SHIMMING THE SHORTER RIGHT LEG HAS NOT BEEN VERY EFFECTIVE. WITH A SHIM ON THE RIGHT YOU ARE STILL DROPPING THE LEFT HIP WHICH MEANS THAT THE ROOT CAUSE; INABILITY TO SIT SQUARELY ON THE SEAT IS NOT BEING ADDRESSED. YOUR PROBLEMS ARE IN PELVIC / LOWER BACK / HIP FUNCTION AND YOU NEED TO SEE A VERY GOOD STRUCTURAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL FOR AN ASSESSMENT AND COURSE OF ACTION TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION.
So if my left leg is longer what would cause
Me to sit left hip forward and drop the left hip?
Simple geometry says a shorter right femur
Would pull my right hip forward wouldn't it?
Geometry doesn't have a lot to do with how humans sit on bikes. What influences that is mechanical, neurological and developmental differences between left and right sides. The problem for me in commenting on queries like yours is that it is best likened to an incomplete jigsaw puzzle. Very incomplete. Because I don't have all the pieces (i.e, one on one assessment and direct contact) I have to advise based on the playing the odds of what experience suggests is the most likely occurrence based on what you have told me. That is what I have done. Is it the only possibility?
Not at all, but what I have said is the most likely.
For you to be certain, you will need an observer to stand above and behind you while you pedal under load on a trainer with your shirt off. The observer needs to tell you which hip is sitting forward and which hip is dropping under load on each pedal stroke of that side. The hip drop and forward movement may be happening on the same side OR one hip will sit forward while the other drops. Let me know.
Thanks so much for this tremendous resource Steve. It's good reading and is providing a lot of help to many folks. So my question is pedal related. You talk about shoes, arch supports, insoles, canting devices, shimming devices, but NEVER pedals. So let's hear it. Is there a system or systems you find works better overall? I know many other questions would need to be asked and answered to answer that one in particular but hearing your thoughts on teh subject of pedals would be great. Thanks.
G'day Jonathan,
This blog has only been going for a couple of months and is a means for me to clear head space. All in time. I'll get to it.
Steve,
I've been riding with your 3-3mm bolt universal cleat shim for the past few weeks (1 shim and a few wedges–total 5 mm). I was still tipping and felt I needed more. I added 1 more of you shims and stacked two lewedges (1mm) and two additional wedges for canting. This has caused some serious pedal 'rocking' (up and down). My question is a simple one. I have the Look blades and I'm wondering if I need the Look Keo shim?, or is it just the pedal? I had no rocking problem with the orginal 5mm set up.
Thanks so much,
Your biggest fan!
G'day Anon,
Can you be more specific about 'rocking'?
Do you mean vertical slop?
Or slop in another plane?
Great stuff. Please keep the blog going. Valuable information. Arch support post has helped me and I'm going to start a "Wedge Ride" this week.
Thank you.
Anneke
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the response. I suppose I mean vertical plane. Foot is going from supination to pronation. It's the cleat that no longer sits correctly on the pedal. If I put the cleat directly on the shoe there is no movement (everything is secure and stable. Anything else creates vertical movement (supination/pronation. I don't have to be attached to see the rocking. I have attached the shoe to pedal and observed it is something to do with the cleat and pedal interface.
Thanks so much.
G'day Anon,
You are using a combination of our Time / Campag Pro Fit / Keywin compatible shim with a Keo cleat plus counter stacked cleat wedges to gain some extra shim stack height. It might be the shim type you have chosen that is the problem but I doubt it. The only problem I've come across with Keo users using the T/C/K shim is that because the Keo is a shorter cleat than the T/C/K shim was designed for, torquing up the cleat doesn't force the front edge of the shim to conform closely to the curve of the sole of the shoe in some cases. When this happens, pedal entry can be ddifficult because of the leading edge of the shim 'hanging' with a gap between shim and shoe sole. There should be no gap.
The shorter length of the Keo shim eliminates this problem. I suspect it is the use of counter stacked cleat wedges as part of the shim stack. They may (I say cautiously) be fouling the pedal. Using counter stacked cleat wedges as part of a shim stack is not something I need to do, as 2 and 3 mm shim varieties take care of any shim stack requirement from 2mm upwards in single mm increments.
I would suggest Keo compatible shims only to give you the shim stack height you require. I would be very surprised if that doesn't solve the problem. Let me know.
Another suggestion is that you don't combine cleat wedges with a shim stack on a 3 bolt shoe unless there is no other choice. I would suggest cutting down your cleat wedges (maximum of 3) and fitting them underneath the heel of your shoe insole as per the pic at the bottom of the post Foot Correction part 2: Wedging.
Hey Steve,
I went out and bought the look keo shims today. I can't believe my shop had them!! I removed the wedges and taped them to my heel (as per the Hogg method) However, the rocking hasn't disappeared unfortunately. There is a gap at the front (as you mentioned) so it doesn't conform completely to my soles. Not sure if that could be the problem? I don't have trouble getting into the pedal because of the gap. Your help is super appreciated. I'm the most comfortalbe I have ever been on a bike since implementing all your techniques….even if I am currently in bike fit hell.
thanks,
Greg
G'day Greg,
I've just bolted a Keo cleat to 5 different models /sizes of shoes. In each case there was lateral rocking possible without a shim being used. I then repeated the task on each of the shoes with a 3mm shim inserted between cleat and shoe sole. For each of the 5 shoes, I used the most forward adjustment and most rearward adjustment possible for the Keo cleat. In each case there was lateral rocking to a similar degree as without a shim. Please recheck whether there is rocking without a shim. If there is not, please send me a pic of of the side view and front view of cleat and shim mounted to shoe sole. Our email address is pedalpushers@bigpond.com.
Hi Steve
re fitting of trimmed-off 3-hole yellow heel varus wedge sticky-taped to the bottom of the shoe insole shown in earlier post….
Why not use a purple 4-hole Speedplay wedge instead of 3-hole Shimano wedge and save the cutting? Would it not provide a more fool-proof solution for those needing 1 or 2 heel varus wedges?
Thanks
Yuri B (May 2008 Hogg-cyclefit veteran!)
G'day Yuri,
It has been a while. I've tried what you suggest without success though I'm not certain as to the 'why'.If you look from above, the Speedplay wedges are rounded in the centre section which means that they don't fit well into the heel of a shoe. When I excised the rounded edges leaving a rectangle (more or less), they don't cover the width of the heel of the insole. When I found they were problematic under the heel I didn't bother spending a lot of time working out the 'why' because there was an already effective alternative in the 3 bolt BFS cleat wedges.
thanks for the reply Steve. Terrific blog!
Regarding the photo of the blue insole with trimmed 3-hole yellow wedge – can you please annotate it for me – which side is the "trim" – I presume the thin side is trimmed? And on photo is it the left insole with a varus thick side untrimmed? I am trying to duplicate your setup with 1 varus wedge on the right insole. Thanks again.
Yuri B. Melbourne.
G'day Yuri,
Yes, trim the thinner edge to allow the cleat shim to fit the outline of the heel of the insole. Theoretically, it makes more sense to trim the thick edge because then a stack of 'heel' wedges would take up less vertical space for a given degree of cant. As you will find if you trim the thick edge, the cut will pass straight through one of the slots and it makes the 'heel' wedge fit the insole less well. So thin edge it is.
Hi Steve,
I took the shims out and tried. There is still lateral rocking!!! This is substantial rocking. I tried 3 different shoes that I had lying around and tried with different cleats (I have 4 new sets of cleats–gf uses look too). They all had lateral rocking but not to the extent that this shoe is producing. I actually got rid of my speedplays a couple of months ago because of this rocking (switched to look because I was told speedplay causes lateral rocking). I'm now thinking it could possibly be my shoes?? Brand new top of the line Norhwaves bought last year. Perhaps the construction of the sole was a bit off, or the lateral rocking of the speedplay caused me to warp the sole?? Possible?
Thanks Steve.
Greg
G'day Greg,
I thought that may have been the case. I could not understand why the shim would cause rocking unless the cleat rocked without a shim because torquing up the cleat mounting screws forces the shim to conform to the curve of the sole. I haven't had a lot to do with Northwave shoes; only enough to comment that the cleat mounting holes are too far forward for a lot of riders. But that wouldn't have anything to do with your problem. I can only assume that something about the shape of the curve of the sole, either laterally or fore and aft is distorting the cleat causing it to not sit square to the cleat contact area of the pedal platform.
Check whether there is rocking present on the other side?
You haven't mentioned any so I imagine there are only 2 possible answers to that:
1. Yes but you hadn't noticed it.
2. No
If 1. then the rocking is unlikely to be the problem. More that the left leg is either over extending or that it's plane of movement is being challenged.
If 2. then you have a problem with the shoe or cleat / pedal. Has the upper surface of the pedal platform where the cleat contacts it have any wear?
Any depressions or noticeably worn areas?
Steve,
There is rocking on the left leg, but it is very minimal, and if I press down hard enough it isn't there at all. My cleats are all new, and pedals are new. I have tried two of my GF's shoes and there is no rocking. The right side rock is present in my shoes with or without me in them. I didn't want to bother you with my history because I'm sure you are extremely busy, but I am at a lost!
Here is a brief history of my situation, and what I have been doing lately:
Left side pirformis is knotted, and my left Psoas, Left side (low back, abs, hip hamstring, tfl, itb) all work as one (sitting twisted on bike. Obvious pain is in all those areas on left side. More pressure on left foot, tight left calf, sciatica years ago when it started (1996).
Right side-fine, but my foot struggles a lot. Right foot pronates (tibial rotation). Right "sit down" bone was hurting a lot.
Recently, started ART and Massage Therapy consistently. It was helping, but pain was still present.
I started reading 'everything' I could find that you have written, and in the last month I have:
-Put two wedges under the left side (varus), two 3mm shims under the right with two varus wedges on right as well.
-Currently using orthotics, but waiting for esoles to come in.
-using 'shape' shoes, bought overcoming neck and back pain (stretching like crazy)
-xrays standing–showing scoliosis, right hip dropped and tilted forward. Right femur sitting approx. 4 mm below left.
-Moved seat down a few mm, and twisted it slightly to left.
Currently, left side is feeling much better. The Art and MT is seemingly becoming more effective and my left glute, psoas, etc. is working itself out. Thank you so much!
Perhaps my situation caused the shoe warping? I wish Australia wasn't so far from Canada!
Thanks for all the help and info. you provide! I wish I knew you you 10 years ago when I racing in Europe and struggling with this problem.
Thanks,
Greg
Re: xray recommendation for LLD…
If you don't know your ideal cleat/wedge arrangement, I suppose you just recommend taking the xray in shoes with zero wedges? Since the foot would sit with the heel lower than the toe, wouldn't the metatarsals obscure the tibia?
If you don't know your "ideal" insole arrangement, do you suggest that a person uses none for the xray, or a pair of esoles that are equal in terms of support, or to not take the xray until you have determined the correct amount of support (e.g., black in left shoe, blue in right shoe)?
The recommendation said you measure from the cleat. So is the cleat then the lower end of the tibia measurement? And the femurs would be measured separately?
G'DAY GREG,
TO MAKE THIS EASIER, I HAVE CUT AND PASTED YOUR COMMENT AND COMMENTED WITHIN YOUR TEXT IN CAPITALS.
There is rocking on the left leg, but it is very minimal, and if I press down hard enough it isn't there at all. My cleats are all new, and pedals are new. I have tried two of my GF's shoes and there is no rocking. SOUNDS LIKE A NEW PAIR OF SHOES ARE IN ORDER.The right side rock is present in my shoes with or without me in them. I didn't want to bother you with my history because I'm sure you are extremely busy, but I am at a lost!
Here is a brief history of my situation, and what I have been doing lately:
Left side pirformis is knotted, and my left Psoas, Left side (low back, abs, hip hamstring, tfl, itb) all work as one (sitting twisted on bike. Obvious pain is in all those areas on left side. More pressure on left foot, tight left calf, sciatica years ago when it started (1996).PROBABLY A PRE EXISTING PROBLEM THAT BECAME CHRONIC AFTER RAN OUT OF WAYS TO COMPENSATE
Right side-fine, but my foot struggles a lot. Right foot pronates (tibial rotation).Right "sit down" bone was hurting a lot. IS THE RIGHT SIT BONE PAIN OCCURRING BECAUSE YOU DROP THE RIGHT HIP AND MAKE THE LEFT LEG EXTEND MORE OR BECAUSE YOU DROP THE LEFT HIP AND MAKE THE RIGHT LEG EXTEND MORE? EITHER IS POSSIBLE.
Recently, started ART and Massage Therapy consistently. It was helping, but pain was still present. TELL ME WHERE YOU LIVE AND I'LL ATTEMPT TO POINT YOU AT SOMEONE WHO CAN DETERMINE ROOT CAUSES.
I started reading 'everything' I could find that you have written, and in the last month I have:
-Put two wedges under the left side (varus), two 3mm shims under the right with two varus wedges on right as well.
-Currently using orthotics, but waiting for esoles to come in. ORTHOSES MAY OR MAY NOT HELP ASSUMING THEY WERE PRESCRIBED FOR WALKING OR RUNNING. ONCE THEIR IS HEEL CONTACT, AS IN WALKING ETC, FOOT MECHANICS AND HENCE WEDGE NUMBERS, ALMOST ALWAYS CHANGE AS COMPARED TO CYCLING WHERE THERE IS NO HEEL CONTACT.
-using 'shape' shoes, bought overcoming neck and back pain (stretching like crazy)I ASSUME YOU MEAN MBT OR SKECHERS FOOTWEAR?
-xrays standing–showing scoliosis, right hip dropped and tilted forward. Right femur sitting approx. 4 mm below left. MEASURABLE BONE LENGTH DIFFERENCE OR FUNCTIONAL DIFFERENCE AS RESULT OF SCOLIOSIS?
-Moved seat down a few mm, and twisted it slightly to left.
Currently, left side is feeling much better. The Art and MT is seemingly becoming more effective and my left glute, psoas, etc. is working itself out. GOOD Thank you so much!
Perhaps my situation caused the shoe warping? MAYBE. WE CAN ONLY SPECULATE. I wish Australia wasn't so far from Canada! SORRY, THOUGH WE GET A FEW CANADIANS AND I'M TALKING TO A GENT FROM SASKATCHEWAN WHO WANTS TRAINING. IF THAT EVENTUATES, THERE MAY BE AN OPTION CLOSER TO HOME.
Thanks for all the help and info. you provide! YOUR WELCOME I wish I knew you you 10 years ago when I racing in Europe and struggling with this problem.
G'day Eric,
Sorry, I initially missed your comment. Bernard's recommendation is as written; though I should have been more clear. My practise is this:
I'm not concerned whether a rider has an measurable LLD or not. If there is a substantial LLD it is obvious. If an LLD is small, sometimes if is obvious, sometimes it is not. I find that my assessments accord with x rays 90 odd % of the time and are at variance the rest of the time. Bike fitting isn't as simple as "Right leg is 5mm shorter so right cleat needs shimming".
The question any rider or bike fitter needs to ask themselves is "What is the functional picture?"
For instance, is one foot longer or of different proportions to the other?
Does the rider sit reasonably squarely on the seat or drop to one side?
Is there a marked difference in range of movement between sides in the hips, lower back and hamstrings? Etc, etc.
Each of these things adds or subtracts a functional component from what may or may not be a measurable LLD and so affect functional leg length equality (or inequality) on a bike.
More often than not when I suggest an X ray or scan for leg length, it for the benefit of the client off the bike that is my interest. I have already made an assessment of what was required on the bike. However, we all spend far more time off the bike than on the bike and the asymmetries we develop because of postural anomalies off the bike contribute to the functional picture on the bike. So to put any uncertainty to rest, I often suggest an X ray or scan so that the rider knows whether they have to -
a) consider a heel lift or build up in one shoe because there is a measurable LLD.
b) sort out their postural and flexibility issues because we already know that there is a functional LLD.
Lastly, my personal preference for X ray or scan for this purpose (life off the bike) is cut and pasted from a booklet I give fit customers below.
Consider seeing:
A health professional for a referral for a standing, load bearing Xray or scan with both knees locked and with the relative height of the femoral heads noted. You will need a front on shot and a side on shot so as to determine whether both halves of the pelvis are in the same plane.
I hope this answers your question more fully.