Last Updated on December 19, 2012 by stevehoggbikefitting.com
G’day all,
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Steve
Thanks for some very informative info on your website!
I read that noticeable foot length difference causes an LLD.
How much is noticeable?
The reason I ask, I have been a competitive cyclists for over 10yrs and from as far back as i can recall I have always had a pain in my right quad (vastus lataralis). It was a mild irritation for years but during the last 2yrs has become more than that.
I have been working with a great physio who has corrected several issues but we still cannot seem to fix this.
We did note an SI joint restriction, right foot 1cm shorter than the left (difference is frome the ball to the toe, use the same size shoes with look keo cleats), no LLD when standing or walking. I am also working with an osteopath to sort out some neurological issues (thanks for that insight!!!!).
I am thinking maybe the foot difference is part of the problem?
I have told my physio that when I ride I feel as if the right foot is ahead of the left and the left leg feels longer. In Toronto, Canada we seem to lack trained fitters who can see this as i have been fitted several times and no one has picked up on this.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Samera
G’day Samera,
It depends on where the difference in foot length is. If
the 10 mm difference is between foot and MTP joints (the base knuckles of the toes) then a 10 mm shorter foot will create an effective short leg length that will to be addressed with a shim. Additionally, when there is a substantial foot length difference, the cleat position needs to be determined for each foot separately. So if one foot is a size 44 and the other a 42 and you are using Method 1 cleat position, fit the cleats to the recommended position for each size on its own. Don’t try and come up with a compromise position that is the same. My experience is that doing so is not a good long term solution and that taking each foot as a separate entity is preferable.
In your case however, you say the difference is in the toe length so it has no impact and that is not likely to be your problem. If your right vastus lateralis is overloaded, then there is a challenge the plane of movement of the right leg. When combined with your sacro iliac joint restriction and your feeling of one foot being forward of the other and one leg feeling longer than the other it is very likely that you are not sitting squarely on the seat.
What I would suggest is that when next you see the health professionals that are advising you, take an indoor trainer with you so that the physio or osteopath can see what you are doing on the bike. The most important
view for them to consider is the rear one. Any tendency for the pelvis to
sit asymmetrically will flow outward to the periphery causing each leg to
work through different planes, the torso to twist and one shoulder to be
thrust further forward than the other.
Above all, read and apply the Foot Correction posts. The two big things to
get right as far as fitting goes is to have to develop a pelvis that
functions more or less symmetrically on a bike, and to get the foot
correction right. Take care of those and the rest of the fit is easy by
comparison.
Steve,
This is a great idea. How about some more video footage? Stretches? And maybe some more stories about other professionals you have fit and some of their problems prior to seeing you.
Thank you Alehrlichinc,
I’ll put those on the list as well.
I have enjoyed the recent posts. I understand that you have worked with individuals facing severe physical challenges. It might be informative to hear about some of your more extreme cases in detail including the steps needed to determine the problem as well as the solution.
Okay Wayne,
thanks for that. It is on the list.
Steve,
I love reading your blog as it is such a wealth of information and it will take me ages to finally feel that I have read most of it all.
What always troubles me when fitting is an effective way of choosing the right saddle width. As a lot of times, (myself included) it is hard to feel the difference in saddle widths as your body seems to adjust what it supplied and adapts to it.
In your experience, how do you determine the correct saddle width in the absence of an array of various saddles & widths to test out.
G’day Martin,
My experience is that seat width is not as crucial as many
are led to believe. While I would never say that anyone can ride any seat, the most common seat problem is where it is, and how that forces the rider to bear their weight, rather than what it is. I change fit clients seats only if –
1. I have completed the fit and they are still not comfortable on the seat. This happens but in percentage terms isn’t that common.
2. If their existing seat, even with a change of seat post, won’t allow me to gain the seat position that I desire for that client. This is where SMP’s are often handy because their extra long seat rails and where they are placed relative to the upper allows more rearward adjustment potential than other brands. Not everyone needs to sit way back but when you see as many mismatched bodies and bikes as I do, it happens.
So the real answer to your question, is that assuming you are correct in wondering whether your seat width is okay. there is no way to determine what you should be riding in the absence of various seats to try. I stock 8 – 12 SMP models and at least another 6 -8 different seats from other manufacturers. If I’m scratching to get the rider comfortable in what I know to be a good position, then I try the range of seats in turn until the rider is happy. There is no other way.
In your case, you don’t want or need to buy half a dozen seats to find one
that fits. Find a shop that is customer oriented and will allow you to
trial seats on an indoor trainer at their premises. This is not foolproof
but is a much better way of determining what seat to buy than just guessing.
Steve,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
I am glad I am not going completely crazy on this and am not alone in my observations.
Now I just have to go out and buy a whole bunch of test saddles.
Could you offer any insights as to if certain brands or shapes might suit certain tastes? For example if someone likes a Specialized Toupe they might also like an SLR (or maybe make a list based on some very rudimentary characteristics).
G’day Karsten,
I don’t know if it is possible to draw accurate
parallels between different seats. My experience is that for every time that it can be done there is another instance where it fails.
I’d like to know your thoughts on using the computrainer in conjunction with other tools for bike fitting. Now I’m not saying I rely on it completely but I’ve had great success in helping people retrain neuromuscular firing patterns with thought and proper drills which helps take some of the guesswork out of positioning. Also many times it also seems somewhat therapeutic for people with poor functional skills.
G’day Damon,
Real time feedback is a great tool. It’s on the list.
The information that you give is incredible don’t change anything !! I would like to see some more information on the body work that we cyclists should be doing.
thanks
jdp
G’day JdePalma,
There needs to be some changes but those changes won’t
affect the information that is already on the site.
Hi Steve
I am always interested to read your posts on bike fit related topics.
They are the main reason I read the blog. But I must say I am also
excited when there is a beer review posted and any post not related
to bike fitting on a more personal nature is interesting too. So I’ll put my 2 bobs worth in for some more beer reviews and the odd post that has nothing to do with bike fitting.
Okay Tony,
Will do. I’m a bit behind on beer reviews but have a few
up my sleeve that need writing.
Steve,
You do a very good job of explaining fitting issues, but when you provide videos it really help completes the learning. Forexample, you did a story about people hip dropping. I have always assumed the hip drop would be a lot more pronounced. But the videos you provided demonstrated that it could be very subtle. I would love to see more videos like these. Particularly with the balance test. Perhaps videos demonstrating someone too far forward, too far back, and just right.
Mike
Thanks Mike,
I’ve added that to the list.
Steve,
You do a very good job of explaining fitting issues, but when you provide videos it really help completes the learning. Forexample, you did a story about people hip dropping. I have always assumed the hip drop would be a lot more pronounced. But the videos you provided demonstrated that it could be very subtle. I would love to see more videos like these. Particularly with the balance test. Perhaps videos demonstrating someone too far forward, too far back, and just right.
Mike
Okay Mike,
will do. Thanks for the suggestion.
Hey Steve,
How about an article on the special fitting equipment youve used in the past along with a case study to go along with it. Examples Im thinking of would be your FSA lateral offset seatpost also that J seatpost I was reading about in the ebooks. Thanks for the great blog.
Thanks James,
I’m on the case.
Okay James,
they are added to the list.
I think the current BLOG is already close to 10 out of 10 but if you would like more suggestions then my entry is:
Nutrition – on the bike and off the bike. By this I don’t mean for Steve Hogg to become an accredited nutrition specialist but more in line with “material challenges” blog entry for food i.e. foods that can/do affect on-the-bike and off-the-bike ‘well being’. Things like dairy, gluten, transfats, carbs, etc.
Other topics: regular product reviews – such as groups, bars, stems, frames, wheels, tyres, etc – BUT with most emphasis on bike-fit, reliability and strength as opposed to weight obsession or fancy material its made of.
PS re new heel wedges – how are they installed? using sticky tape in a manner of trimmed yellow 3-hole wedge or simply placed under the insole heel ‘as is’? I am wondering what will hold it in place if not sticky tape.
G’day Yuri,
I claim to know a bit about bike fitting but claim no such
expertise in many other areas. You know me so you also know I’ve picked up a few things along the way that seem to work for most. I’ve added your suggestions to the list, but when they get posted, I won’t try and claim they are definitive.
Re your query about the heel wedges; yes, I use thin clear packing tape. Providing it overlaps onto the upper surface of the Esoles, it holds on really well in wet and dry weather. It is okay to place the heel wedges in the heel cup alone but they tend to move about.
Hard to make it better as outstanding! I love the video examples and cases of people with problems and how you solve them. More of them with even basic problems with video would be great. I still would like to see more video of people at correct hieght and more at to high a seat hieght. Do not know if possible but making the blog searchable would be helpful. I sometimes remember a comment you made to some one about a problem like the causes of tight iliopsoas or ITB and later have the problem but then can not find. Great service to everyone and I hope you get some takers from the US to come for training.
Bill
G’day Bill,
I’ve added the seat height videos to the list. Re the search
function; it’s at the top right hand corner of each page where it says “enter keyword”. The more detailed the phrase you input, the more accurate the search. For instance if you put “Foot Correction” in, what comes up is every post where that phrase as been used and so on.
I really like to read your advice here (and also the other kind of posts). Your information on fitting is very useful, even for someone that just rides for the fun of it. I would like to see some advice on how to improve your flexibility in order to improve your position on the bike, or prevent problems. What stretches and exercises is useful to prevent problems and enjoy your rides more. I understand it is not within your expertise, but maybe you have contacts that could do some guest entries. This would be a great complement to your fitting info.
G’day Lars,
Thank you for that. One of the planned posts is an in depth
interview with Fred McDaniel of the Human Performance Center. Fred and wife Kele know an awful lot about stretching. In the store is a download of Fred’s book “Flexibility for Cyclists”. I recommend it to anyone who rides a bike or sits at a desk who doesn’t have extreme problems. This with a couple of add ons, is the regime I follow myself.
For those who are really, really tight, ‘Overcome Neck and Back Pain’ and ‘Stretching and Flexibility’ both by Kit Laughlin are encyclopaedic in their detail for those who want more detail. All 3 highly recommended. A gym in Texas bought 12 copies of Overcome Neck and Back Pain to distribute to their staff personal trainers.
hi steve
an idea I’d like to see examined is the process of transferring measurements/positions between bikes with different saddles:
I use the same type of saddle on my road bikes,so optimal position replication is straightforward
on my mtb + a classic/vintage bike ,my saddles are different
rather than go through ‘the process’ each time ,a way of transferring details wld be much appreciated
cheers
doug
G’day Dog,
that is a planned upcoming post anyway, so no problem.
It might be too controversial, but I would love a direct observation critique of some pro’s on their bikes. There is enough TV footage now that it would be interesting to hear some basic problems that can easily be spotted. It seems as if many pros often try to be ‘too pro’ themselves and ride with some terrible fits.
Karsten,
I agree that it is a good idea but there are two problems that
make me extremely reluctant. Firstly, for some that look horrible, it isn’t possible to know the full story without personal contact. For those, what you see may be as good as it gets.
Second, some years ago I did publicly criticise a high profile pro’s position and ended up with legal threats and a whole lot of other stuff I can do without.
So, not going to happen.
Howdy from Austin Steve. Your detailed information on how human bodies interract with bicycles is highly appreciated. I would find it interesting to read about some of your experiences with return clients with imbalance issues that have been resolved thus requiring a new cleat/saddle/bar position.
Cheers,
Okay Jerry. That is added to the list.
thanks for that steve
your valued opinion on rear end placement is well established ,including tt modifications
I’d really like to hear about front end placement considerations
eg if balance positioning is taken as a given & tt effort unweights the front end almost completely ,how relevant are such things as extension length and the relationship between the proximal upper limbs and the main axis of the trunk?
ciao
doug
G’day Dog,
Okay, on the list but I’ve got say I’m the last guy to ask about included angle relationships between main axis of trunk and upper legs. Yes, I’ve got an opinion but it is not something that can be quantified with angle relationships in terms of broad recommendations. That kind of thinking leads to too many problems.with the people who read it and believe it.
of course-understand your principles of functionality>formula;I suppose what I was getting at is-what factors determine optimal placement of trunk+arms in an aero position?
looking forward to your thoughts & advice
cheers
d
G’day Dog,
I thought I’d covered that. Okay, I’ll put an Addendum to the
TT and Tri posts on the list with more detail.
You have indeed covered that ,Steve;thanks for ALL of your information & energy on this site btw .
What I was pondering was really 2 things;you have said something along the lines of ‘don’t swap an ounce of power for even a pound of aero advantage’
Why would a TT specialist do just that by sliding saddle forward & increasing quadcentricity/loading postural muscle /restricting lung function etc?
Assuming a rider stays in the standard road saddle ‘balance position’ ,what are the determining factors for optimal aero extension length between elbows right back being banged by the knees ,& full on ‘superman’ stretch -both extremes being accompanied by unloaded upper body at TT effort?
thanks
Doug
G’day Dog,
If I understand your question correctly, and I may not, my
feeling has always been that the aim is to gain the greatest torso extension consistent with comfort and ability to maintain that torso extension while under pressure. Better torso extension equals better breathing ability.
Steve,
Great news for Cantwell, finally getting a chance at the top level! Talk about how you fit him and made him so good 🙂 http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cantwell-to-saxo-bank-sungard-for-2012
G’day BSiers,
Jon can certainly sprint. Re your request, not possible. He was a super sprinter before ever I met him. All I did was apply a layer of polish.
Hi Steve,
I hope you don’t mind the question.
I am 173cm and I ride a Cervelo size 54 with 110mm stem.
Now, (i) having looked at some of the Cervelo and Garmin team riders (same height or close), some of them were/are riding a size 52. Presently, (ii) Farrar (183cm) is riding a size 54 frame. Last, (iii) I jumped on my partner’s new bike (Canyon size 52) and felt comfortable and my feet clear the front wheel.
I never got recommended or encouraged to ride a smaller frame but thought I could try a size down next, with longer stem (120mm), and other adjustments for a lighter and stiffer frame.
What do you think?
Regards,
AMR
You are already a gold mine Steve, that just keeps on giving! Thank you.
I don’t know if could have life outside of cycling with more information! 😉 Regardless, it is all appreciated, helpful, and interesting (including the beer!)
G’day Konstantin,
The site gets far more traffic and Comments than I
ever thought possible. 12 – 16 times more traffic than we were aiming for. The problem I have is that it takes up so much time that it is almost a job in itself. Which is why I’m typing away to you at 2 a.m. That is why there are some changes coming. I can’t sustain the load for much longer.
Okay, I’m going way outside the box here, but I think it’s relevant. Many cyclists now are migrating to recumbent bikes and trikes, but I have never seen anything published on the proper fit and biomechanical challenges specific to these machines. If you have dealt with this, I would love to hear about your experiences.
G’day Mobilemail,
I like this!!. Yeah, I’ve set up a few recumbents,
hand bikes and the like. They’re much easier than conventional bikes. This is definitely on the list
Insoles or shims?
Mountain bike fitting – transferring your road position to your mtb. Thanks for the time you put into this Steve.
G’day Craig,
there are differences and I can give general
recommendations only. There will be a detailed post on mtb position sooner or later.
Tuesday, 15 November 2011 Hello Steve,
Long story so will try get to the point aqap.
I use Speed play Zero peddles, am bow legged with a toe out on the right foot running and riding, right leg dominant so I always un-cleat right side. 67y male
Had an accident, March 2010, whilst cleating and snapped the foot over the pedal and stretched the ankle ligaments.
Two days later collapsed whilst running due to sudden intense pain and could not run for 18 months due to ‘sinus tarsi syndrome’ and other inflammatory conditions around the ankle ligaments.
Treatment 3 cortisone injections, heel lifts, arch support plus Mobic anti/inflams and good old time to heal.
I can now run twice a week max 10k but ride about 150/200k per week.
Because of the right leg and foot turning out I need to allow the peddle max float and have the cleats medially set on the shoe so as not to clip the rear stay with my heel.
However when I am standing over the bike with left foot cleated I often roll the right foot laterally on the cleat base and feel stress in the ligaments around the injured area.
Q: Will I roll my foot [supinate] and stress the lateral ankle ligaments less by using a longer axel and moving the cleat closer to the out side of the shoe thus bringing the foot into a workable position but being more stable when standing on the shoe cleat ?
If the answer is yes can I purchase a longer axle for my Speedplay peddles from you ? or other suggestions.
Many thanks and appreciation for your guidance.
—
Best regards,
Westly Windsor:
G’day Westly,
The first thing I’d suggest is to get some decent arch support into your cycling shoes and see what difference that makes.
Next, does your knee centre descend over the centre of the midfoot while pedalling?
If yes, you don’t need longer axles. If no, and the knee descends further out than the midfoot, then yes, you do need longer axles, or perhaps a longer axle only on the right side.
The problem I have with longer axles is that though in theory, longer axle kits are available in Australia, in practice I can only get the 1/2″ longer than standard axles as separate items and even then, only to suit Speedplay Zero; not the other models. I stock the full range of Zero pedals with non standard axle lengths, minus 1/8″, plus 1/8″, plus 1/4″ and plus 1/2″ but it would be less expensive for you if you can source axles separately, assuming that they are the solution.
Initially though, I would be reading the post on Arch Support and getting some Esoles. That might not wholly solve the problem, I don’t know, but it should make a significant positive difference.
Steve
I am very intrigued with mid foot cleat position, what about an article for DIY guys. For example a shoe to modify, cleat to use so on. A step by step or starter for moving to mid foot.
Thanks
Keith
A good idea but one I will pass on. Gotz Heine, for whom I have the utmost respect, has the European patent rights for producing shoes with cleat placed in the middle third of the shoe sole. The last thing I want to do is to publicly undermine him in his long battle to convince the cycling world that midfoot cleat position is a valid choice by showing others how to circumvent his patent. This is one that you will have to work out yourself. I hope you understand why.
Hi Steve,
Great blog, and thanks for reaching out to us readers for topic ideas…some great suggestions and conversations going on here.
One thing that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately is what role bike alignment plays in our asymmetries. from the way we align our stems with the front wheel, and the saddle with the stem to frame/fork tolerances and wheel trueness. Craig Calfee has an interesting article on his website about fork asymmetry. http://www.calfeedesign.com/tech-papers/fork-symmetry/
I’ve owned a number of so called hi end carbon bikes and will say the the tolerances that they’re built to are dismal compared to a metal frame that can be perfectly aligned after it’s built, same goes for some factory wheels compared to a hand built from a good wheel builder.
Since we as humans always compensate to create balance it would seem to me that we must compensate for any deviation away from perfect alignment of our gear.
Thanks Cory,
I like this and may have to make it a future post topic. You’re right about alignment and how the rider will always attempt to work around it. It reminds me of something that happened to me about 15 years ago. I had a new frame and built it up in a real hurry so I could make a fast bunch ride in a park near where I live. I rarely get the time to ride in this bunch and wanted to take advantage of the opportunity. Anyway, I’m riding around with no problems other than every time I get off the seat to close a gap, I’m cannoning into people on my left. After an hour and a half I was thinking there was a major problem with frame alignment and so headed slowly home. While riding slowly, I noticed that I had the stem pointing about 5 degrees off centre to the left which explained a lot. When riding on the seat, the bike was pointing fine as I was making accommodations for it. Off the seat with the only connection being pedals and bars was an entirely different story!
Hey Steve,
this is the best website on the planet for bike fit information that WORKS. You have helped me a lot and others as well. I wanted to congratulate you on getting your valuable insights out there. All the Retul, BG and Serotta guys with their certificates don’t understand half as much as you freely give to everyone. I have had several fits by supposedly highly trained bike fitters from those systems and each time they created more problems for me. I would tell them “this feels bad” and be answered “you just need to get used to it”. Getting “used to it” means back pain, sore knees and numb feet. I would go to see them with problems and come away with MORE!
A couple of them tried to help further but it is obvious that they don’t know what they are doing. If the formula doesn’t work, they are lost. Perspectives on Fitting got my attention. You were too nice. Most of these guys are crap.
After reading this site and spending a few months applying the info you have here, and keeping your advice about How to Avoid Bike Fit Hell in my mind, my back doesn’t hurt, my knees don’t hurt, my feet don’t go numb. And I’m riding the legs off people I used to struggle to keep up with.
THANK YOU.
G’day Bikenut,
I’m happy for you that you’re riding well and pain free.
Re your comments; there are a lot of bike fitters out there trying hard. I think the basic problem is that few fitters have an objective measure of how well they do their job. The toughest, and with the benefit of hindsight, smartest thing I ever did was offer a money back if not happy guarantee on fitting from Day one. To any fitter who might be reading this, try it. It is the greatest incentive to learn that there is. You will learn more from every unhappy customer that you need to make happy than you ever will from the easy ones.
It will keep you on your toes and make you think twice about everything you do. The result?
Your skills improve because you find that what works in individual cases is the only real solution. And you end up with happy customers!
If you’re scared about offering a money back guarantee, be honest and ask yourself why. The thought processes triggered by that will tell whether you are cut out to be a bike fitter or not.
Hi Steve
My question relates to orthotics and shims. I have orthotics designed for cycling that have a heel lift (5mm) to compensate for a short leg. My shoes currently have a shim of 3mm. Do you suggest using both the orthotics and the shim?
Brian
G’day Brian,
Whatever you were told, your orthoses were NOT designed for
cycling. I see this sort of stuff far too often and it is laziness, lack of knowledge, or both on the part of the prescribing podiatrist.
If your orthoses were designed for cyling they wouldn’t have a heel lift. A heel lift is useless in a cycling shoe as a compensation for a shorter leg because there is no rear foot contact with the pedal. All a heel lift does is compromise the fit of your foot in the heel cup of the shoe by lifting it up. I’ll bet that when the orthoses were prescribed, no one watched you pedal your bike.
I would suggest that you get hold of some Esolesand following the advice in the the 3 Foot Correction posts; Part
1: Arch Support, Part
2: Wedgingand Part
3: Shimming .
Hi Steve,
This may be just something that I am interested in reading about….and it is a fairly simple question so maybe it can be answered without you having to write an entire page about it. But I know that you are all about SMP’s and even though I don’t use an SMP I still enjoyed reading about the different degrees of positions that could be achieved with different SMP’s. Anyways, I saw that you wrote a lot about nose down from 2 – 5 degrees (depending on the riders flexibility). Does this tend to be the same for a saddle other than SMP’s? Let’s say for me that uses a Prologo saddle, that is fairly flat along the top sections, so it does not have the pronounced profile like the SMP’s, but I am a little on the tight side when it comes to extending my spine…so would I need more of a nose up on a Prologo saddle? Appreciate it a ton. Thanks
AL
G’day Al,
For most people, a seat like the Prologo you have needs to be fractionally nose up to feel ‘level’. By fractionally I mean 1 – 2 degrees. Otherwise the rider feels as though they are using effort to prevent themselves from sliding forward on the seat. A minority of people feel fine with a level seat or even down 1 degree but on conventional profile seats, any more than that usually means that the rider has to use upper body effort to maintain their position on the seat. This is a no no as it only comes at a cost in performance.
I come across the occasional exception to what I’ve written but not often and not by much.
Ok. A reading of 1-2 degrees as mentioned with a digital level in your measurements article? With a piece of sheet metal ontop of the saddle and NOT with the level resting directly on the saddle, correct?
Thanks
G’day Alberto,
It’s okay to have the level resting on the seat providing
it doesn’t fall into any cut out or channel in the centre. And you also need to make sure that the bike is levelled between axle centres before you start. If this isn’t possible, you can ‘end for end’ it. What that means is measure the seat level then turn the bike 180 degrees and measure seat level again. If there is a variance in seat level measurement then the true angle is half way between the two measurements because the floor that the bike is sitting on is not level.
Thank you Steve. And as far as saddle height measurements, the important thing is just finding a way to consistently measure the saddle height, whether it be measured from BB to saddle surface or BB to bottom of level rested on saddle surface..as long as you use the same measurement from bike to bike, correct?
Correct Alberto
I’ve recently developed an interest in custom cycling shoes, which I think would make an interesting post.
I know four makers: Biomac, Bont, D2, Sabre. Others?
Needing them vs. wanting them?
If you should get them after a bike fit (with you), or is anytime fine?
If it would, or would not, be a good idea to incorporate some of your foot corrections into the custom shoes, if it is possible?
Benefits and drawbacks you have come across with your clients?
And issues I am completely unaware of 🙂
G’day Konstantin,
I don’t consider myself an expert on shoe making
enough to write an article about custom shoes. I have seen a lot of custom shoes and in many cases the owner is disappointed with the fit or some other aspect of the shoe.
However, if a foot is so wide or narrow or in some other way morphologically unusual, then a custom shoe is a must.
I don’t think it is a wise idea to incorporate correction into a shoe last with the possible exception of arch support. And even then, it should be removable. I say this because nothing is static including feet and equipment choices and in many people foot correction needs to
be subtly changed over time. If correction is inbuilt, this can present a problem.
Basic general advice when buying a bike in one article.
Hi Steve,
I am contemplating replacing my winter bike and I get nervous about such a thing – partly cos the one I might be replacing isn’t the best fit though I spent some time on a turbo being looked at when I got it. So I just looked scanned through all the articles looking for one that would have general basic information to give confidence when in a shop. There are times when I listen to the sales person too much and get carried away and can be too being trusting. Other times this doesn’t happen so much at all.
I am planning to visit Sherrit here in the UK next year but if I replace the bike I think it will be sooner rather than later so simply need a fit that is close enough then can be improved upon as necessary. Given you have many readers around the world I thought this sort of article may be of benefit to a lot of people.
The shop I visited this week would sit me on a turbo and well I don’t know the details but do some fitting in the shop to see what might be right pre selection and purchase. Given some of the weather here in the UK I would have to pick the right day to go for a ride too and whilst I am thinking a ride might give the best idea a long ride is perhaps best but not possible with a lot of shops. I am also have a a difficulty in isolating where the discomfort lies / what the issue when something doesn’t feel right sometimes eg including when I try on a new suit for work! So I value the input of a professional (adds to the trusting part perhaps).
Being armed with maybe 2-3 basic pointers, not guaranteed to enable a perfect fit but that decrease the liklihood of a bad fit, increase the chances of a good one and enable me to discuss with the “fitter” what they are looking at and if the bike is best for me would increase my confidence significantly.
Maybe an article isn’t required (though could be easier for others to find such) maybe 2-3 pointers in reply?? Gallic style shrug..je ne sais pas?
Look forward to hearing your thoughts. Hope I’ve not gone on – feel like I’ve been verbose.
Craig
G’day Craig,
Something such as you request is going to be the subject of an upcoming post in detail, but seeing as you have asked, here are some guidelines to help you choose a new bike.
To do so, you will need to know –
1. The seat tube angle of your existing bike.
2. The top tube length of your existing bike
3. The head tube length of your existing bike
4. The handlebar stem length of your existing bike.
5. Your inseam length in bare feet.
Before working through the implications of those 5 parameters you need to know that with a typical seat, there is adjustment potential fore and aft of approximately 1 degree of STA. If you have a frame with an STA of 73 degrees and the seat is in the middle of it’s range of adjustment along the seat rails, then you have an ‘effective’ STA of 73 degrees. If your seat is pushed all the way forward, then you have an ‘effective’ STA of 74 degrees. If the seat is pushed all the way back, then you have an ‘effective’ STA of 72 degrees.
When comparing the frame geometry you have to the frame geometry of any frame you may be considering, there are a number of things to keep in mind. Firstly, ignore seat tube length. Once upon a time when all frames had level top tubes and most frames were steel, it was possible to make comparisons based mainly on seat tube length. No longer! There is no convention amongst manufacturers about how to measure seat tube length. That means that frames with similar fit might be called a Medium 50cm by one manufacturer, a 56cm frame by another and a 54cm by a third. No, I’m not kidding. The most important things to consider are Head Tube Length, Top Tube Length and Seat Tube Angle and Stand Over Height as listed above.
Head Tube Length (HTL): If you are looking at a frame that has a shorter HTL than than your existing frame, the difference can be made up with head set spacers or by using a stem with a higher angle than the one you are currently using. If it has a longer HTL, then you will have to use less head set spacers than on your existing frame, providing of course there are headset spacers to remove.
If your existing frame has an integrated head set and you are looking at a frame with an external head set (usually a steel or titanium frame but there are exceptions) then deduct 25mm from the HTL as that is the approximate space taken up by a high quality external head set.
Conversely, if your existing frame has an external head set and you are looking at a frame with an integrated head set, then add 25 mm to the HTL of your existing frame.
Implications of Top Tube Length (TTL) and Seat Tube Angle (STA): The two are interrelated. To keep it simple, here are a couple of ‘rules’. When you are considering a frame and how well it will fit you, for every degree of STA that it is steeper (higher number) than what you are looking for, you need to add 10mm to the ideal TTL. Conversely, for every degree that a potential purchase is more relaxed (lower number), then deduct 10mm from the ideal TTL. The difference can be made up by using a longer or shorter stem.
Here are a couple of real life examples:
Ideally rider needs a HTL of 160mm, a TTL of 557mm and STA of 74 degrees and is looking at a Cervelo S2 size 56cm which has a HTL of 160mm, a TTL of 565mm and a STA of 73 degrees. At a glance, HTL aside, it doesn’t fit very well. It actually is a good fit. With the Cervelo S2 56cm, if the seat is moved all or most of the way forward on the seat post, that mimics an “effective” STA of 74 degrees and in so doing, reduces the TTL by 10mm.
That leaves with an “effective” STA of 74 degrees, an “effective” TTL of 555mm and the HTL is correct.
Ideally rider needs a HTL of 155mm, a TTL of 579mm and a STA of 72 degrees and is considering a Giant TCR Alliance in size Medium 50cm. The Giant has a HTL of 150mm which is close, a TTL of 555mm and a STA of 73 degrees. By moving the seat all the way back, we gain an “effective” STA of 72 degrees which in turn lengthens the “effective” TTL to 565mm which is still 15mm shorter than ideal. That 15mm can be added to stem length or handle bar reach or a combination of both to provide a reasonable fit on a frame that at first glance appears not to be a good fit at all.
Not all examples are so straight forward but this isn’t rocket science.
Stand Over Height (SOH) is self explanatory. You need to know your inseam length. The more ‘fit’ aware bike manufacturers list SOH in their frame
geometry sheets. Make sure that any frame you buy has an SOH of at least 25mm less than your inseam length. With cycling shoes on, that should allow you a minimum of 35 – 40 mm of crotch to top tube clearance when you mount and dismount the bike.
I hope this helps.
I know this post is a bit old, but I have something I would like to read about. That is your thoughts on pelvis placement on the seat in terms of neutral or rolled forward/rearward.
Your article on cycling-inform.com titled “Special Considerations when Fitting Woman to Bicycles – Part 2” sparked my interest.
As I understand your argument, a pelvis that is not tilted forward, is better because that won’t push the pubic area into the saddle. I understand that better flexibility will aid in this. This in contradictory to what I have always thought. That better flexibility would allow you to roll your pelvis forward, flatten your back and engage your glutes.
My way to this way of thinking comes from examples given from various authors. Like this good/bad example: http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/uploaded_images/Good-Bad-Bike-Posture-2-771383.png
And Cancellara (known to have great flexibility) used as a ‘good’ example: http://cyclingweekly.media.ipcdigital.co.uk/11141|00000362d|42ac_flanders-10-CANCELLARA-1.jpg
And Contador’s position used as a ‘bad’ example of bike position: http://www.direttanews.it/wp-content/uploads/liggett07-contador1.jpg
Although I have read Sheldon Brown express similar thoughts that your pelvis should be in a neutral (Contador) position.
I hear things speak for rolling your pelvis like:
Rolling your pelvis lets you straighten/extend your back allowing more air to circulate.
Good hamstring flexibility let’s you roll your pelvis forward.
Rolling your pelvis will allow you to get lower.
You should aim to sit in a way so to spill water out of your pelvis bowl onto the top tube.
I often hear you talk about extending your upper body out from your pelvis. Isn’t this easier with the pelvis rolled forward?
So just a suggestion. you write a lot about pelvis stability in terms of twisting side to side. But what about a post on pelvis stability when it comes to rolling forward or backwards.
G’day Kasper,
A thoughtful question with some good examples, though I’m
not sure I agree with the good / bad judgments completely.
1. Friel’s blog examples. I’ll agree that the gent on the left looks far superior but we don’t know anything about the function of the rider on the left. Maybe, in his current structural condition, that is as good as it gets. Even if it is, I wholeheartedly agree that he needs to improve how he functions.
2. Cancellara – yes, agreed that he bends well and has good sacro iliac joint mobility that allows him to roll his pelvis forward……………..but look at how far forward he has slid on his seat, causing him to spread his elbows so as not to hit them with his knees. That tells me that there is something wrong with his position. He shouldn’t need to slide forward like that even when riding hard. So functionally good, but a question over how good his position is on the bike.
3. Contador – He seems to extend his spine well but his pelvis is too upright. Often people who look like Contador does in that photo have a limited range of motion in their sacro iliac joints which prevents them from rolling their pelvis forward. Much of the time, that restricted range of motion is congenital. They were born that way and there is not much that can be done about it.
What I’m saying ultimately, is that some people look much better than
others on a bike but ‘looking good’ has two major contributing components.
How well the rider functions and accidents of birth and development can
play a part in that. And how good a position they hold on their bike. If a
less than perfect rider has a good position on his bike, it is still a good
position, even if he doesn’t look as good as a rider who has better
function.
Sorry, getting off track. I post on the merits of the pelvis rolling
forward or back is now on the list. Part of that will be covered in the
next major post which will be called “Functional Symmetry / Leg Length
Differences and a whole lot more”.
Would you say that since Cancellara is sliding forward so much under load that he either needs to 1. move his seat further forward so that he is sitting on the saddle, 2. move his bars either up or closer to him?
Because shouldn’t the shift forward or “shortening” of the positioning be minimal when going hard under load as compared to cruising?
G’day Marc,
I’m wary of making detailed assumptions based on a single still photo which is after all, a snap shot of a split second in time. It could be for the reasons that you say. It could also be that he has just had a serious training block on his TT bike and when under pressure, is autonomically trying to recapture the same seat position as on his TT bike.
Frankly, it could be a number of things. Too high a seat, too much setback or even possibly, not enough set back.
Correct; with a good position and good function, there should be little or no tendency to slide forward under load.